Raise the Hammer

The goeastmountain.com site has a proposal of sorts posted:

http://www.goeastmountain.com/wp-content...

I'm going to take a look at this in more detail and consider it. My first instinct is that it's not a bad solution for West Harbour... the problem is that it doesn't alleviate the poorly-planned East Mountain site, for which any grant of Future Fund money is inappropriate.

I don't understand why the West Harbour is good enough for 20 to 25 concerts a year but not good enough for 10 CFL football games.

How are they going to get 20-25 concerts when they will have to compete with the Molson Ampitheatre?

How are they going to get all those concert goers in and out of the site if access and parking are such a big issue now?

I am so tired of these games. Why don't the Ticats spell out EXACTLY why they believe they cannot be successful at the West Harbour Site. What is this cloak and dagger stuff?

This fits in more with the ambiance of what the WH should be rather than a huge sports stadium. I like it and I would think the artistic and performing arts community will endorse this. The ampitheatre will have much less seating than a stadium especially a Grey Cup with upwards of 40,000.

The stadium at the EM site makes so much more sense. Of course the question is should the city have gone after the PanAms in the first place? hmmm...

Comment edited by HamiltonFan on 2010-07-29 13:45:34

So, Lie-Cats will reduce their demand to $53 million from the Future Fund and rebate $1.5 million of that to silence massive opposition to their proposed suburban development?

Wow, that'll be pretty hard to resist. They propose to pay us off with our own money. Where is the shame? And, honestly, how again is this man considered to be a friend of our City?

Nothing but smoke and mirrors. Every argument they made against a stadium at the West Harbour applies equally to an amphitheatre, and every argument against the East Mountain still applies to this soccer wonderland.

Oh, and how generous of them to allow us to use $7 million of our own money to fund this venture.

Does anyone else feel insulted by this?

Comment edited by UrbanRenaissance on 2010-07-29 13:50:44

Gee - I thought the ticats said you couldn't have concerts at the West Harbour - I guess you can. So why wouldn't we build a stadium that could become an amphitheatre and save money in the process - this is just more games.

Comment edited by HamiltonFan on 2010-07-29 13:51:15

I don't see how this addresses the track and field requirement (unless this would take place at the WH stadium?)

The Ticats don't want a track around their field because you lose the intimacy (I completely agree) - so where would T&F take place?

Either way I agree with these comments - an EH site is an expensive, non-sustainable site for a stadium and should not be considered at all. If the Ticats don't want to play at WH they can stay at IW or find somewhere else. Tax dollars and future fund dollars should not go to an expensive, inaccessible site, period.

The planned amphitheatre is 3000 seats. This is a much more manageable size for the existing infrastructure. And the park format is a much more suitable fit for the Setting Sail plans.

the Ticats announced that they are recommending diverting $7 million of the Future Fund from an East Mountain stadium

Haven't they heard, we're diverting all of it?

It's a great idea, and we can do it with some of the money that we're not going to spend on their east mountain stadium.

Comment edited by jonathan dalton on 2010-07-29 14:03:14

I still don't get why these all have to be permanent structures. The Pan Am Games are not a big enough event to merit that kind of expenditure.

I always thought an Ampitheatre would be better by Confederation but this could work I just see more positives for the city. Look on the bright side if an amphitheater works well Bob was wrong if it doesnt we know he saved us from a huge mistake..

Is the East Mountain suitable from an urban development perspective? From a Future Fund perspective? From an economic sustainability perspective? From a "every city in North America worth it's salt is building downtown/waterfront stadiums - what are we the exception" perspective?

http://thespec.com/Sports/Football/article/816433

"The franchise will ask the city for $7-million from the Future Fund to go towards the park. They break it down as $5 million that was destined for the velodrome funding, plus $2 million that they would ask the city to divert from the $45-million stadium."

I bet the cycling folks are absolutely thrilled to hear that.

"The Cats say this will lead to opportunities for weekly concerts by the Hamilton Philharmonic Orchestra and other bands from the area."

With the added benefit of allowing taxpayers to underwrite more dark days at HECFI venues!

I can see how you can be offended or off-put by having them "sacrifice" some of our money for this concept... but I think the concept is fine and since the Track and Field is leaving for Toronto this whole thing makes sense...

I agree that I can see the logic in moving track somewhere else and giving us soccer. After all reconfiguring the stadium from soccer to football only requires re-painting some lines.

What I find insulting is this latest attempt at "compromise". Just like Fenn's version of "compromise" the Ti Cats get the majority of the benefits while the city pays for the majority of the costs.

Comment edited by UrbanRenaissance on 2010-07-29 14:15:15

but I think the concept is fine and since the Track and Field is leaving for Toronto this whole thing makes sense...

A suburban stadium in the 21st century will never make sense.

Soccer academy, schmoccer academy. The real question is when Scott Mitchell is going to open a charm school. Every time the man opens his mouth he comes off like a cross between a vuvuzela and a douche nozzle.

....nothing but fluff. I don't buy it.

I also don't understand what they say about the soccer academy. Apparently this can't work at West Harbour? If they need all this "extra green space" where will that be on the EM with all the asphalt parking surrounding it? ...and they need access to "multiple modes of transportation" which seems to mean "RHVP only". Again, more of the same bull.

Is it August 10th yet? A decision just needs to be made.... this debate has gone on long enough. They can continue with their "Studies" all they want (if they are even doing any) but they won't matter. If council is going to ignore the future fund committee, what makes you think theyre going to actually read and make an educated decision? Sigh.....

JM

Also, if the TigerCats were still owned by that McDonald guy out of Toronto, guess how much money would be coming forth for the city's Pan-Am Stadium from the TigerCats? About zippo I would say.

Look, the city decided to go after the PanAms, not the TigerCats. Yes, the TigerCats want a new city owned stadium to play in but if they aren't that important, why should anyone care what the TigerCats want?

In the end everyone can debate back and forth on this, but council will be the ones deciding what will happen.

Comment edited by HamiltonFan on 2010-07-29 14:29:07

One reservation I've had about the WH site is the size of the stadium. I like the Molson Ampitheatre, it fits well into the surroundings and sits well on the waterfront. However, it's not very big, doesn't get an awful lot of use that I'm aware of, and it's no good for sports events.

I haven't visited the WH site recently so I don't know what would work best there - a small ampitheatre type facility or larger sports stadium...

The track and field events are not leaving for Toronto. That has been requested by Athletics Canada ONLY because of the intervention of the Ticats in the stadium issue, putting a track and field venue at West Harbour into jeopardy.

The Pam Am Committee has NOT even expressed any comment on the Athletics Canada request yet. And it's the Pan Am Committee that decides where venues and competitions go. NOT national athletic federations.

The misinformation is flying thick and fast... the Ticats really are doing their job to sow confusion!

CONFIRMED: Pan Am track and field moving to Toronto, soccer to Hamilton

Ugh, Ray is correct. The track and field is gone.

Thanks, Ticats, for ruining this one for Hamilton. Well, my personal stance hasn't changed - putting ANYTHING on the East Mountain with Future Fund dollars is a no go.

Not having track and field will make the stadium tighter for football and soccer in the end which a lot of people see as a positive outcome. If the TigerCats had anything to do with this, thank-you TigerCats.

We are very lucky to have a Bob Young here rather than McDonald as owner of the TigerCats but I know some will never acknowledge that. Sad.

Comment edited by HamiltonFan on 2010-07-29 14:57:22

I'm actually happy to hear that we're getting soccer instead of track. It makes much more sense if we want the Cats to reuse the field.

Now if there's only some way to convince the HostCo that the Velodrome should be a temporary structure. Seriously, that thing is going to be completely derelict after the games are over.

What is the fixation that you people have with the stadium being located at WH? It seems like no amount of compromise will satify you zealots. Btw, if a stadium isn't built at EM then you can expect that a mini-mall will. Do you people think that the land there will become a nature preserve? Give your heads a shake!

The Cats are putting their money where there mouth is, something nobody else is doing.

This is an excellent compromise where both parties will win and where the Mayor can save face.

Most city councillors will be going with this plan because it is the best option for Hamilton. Face it, WH stadium is dead and gone. Long live Pan Am Park.

This whole mess is gone beyond the point ridiculous.

Do some of you people not understand, without track and field there will be no funding for a stadium or at least not the type of stadium the city was planning. We could use Brian Timmis stadium for soccer. It already has enough seating.

If we lose this funding the city should move to immediately demolish Ivor Wynne. Since it is the Ticats fault for this mess we should be under no obligation to continue to subsidize their business to the tune of $1.3 million per year.

As for the ampitheater it would be just another empty venue for this city to subsidize every year. It's a nice idea for the future but it is not needed yet.

Since so people go hungry in this city, why not grow food on this wheat field.

Clarification: the ticats are putting OUR money where their mouths are.

"The Cats are putting their money where there mouth is, something nobody else is doing."

We are ALL putting our money up here. That Future Fund - which is the vast majority of the money in play here - is the city's money, and it belongs to all of us.

Pxtl said: "Now if there's only some way to convince the HostCo that the Velodrome should be a temporary structure. Seriously, > that thing is going to be completely derelict after the games are over."

A Velodrome doesn't have to be derelict after. There's a Velodrome in Forest that does well for itself. Also "Fixed Gear" culture is huge in Toronto. While anyone who follows track cycling will tell you there's a vast difference between hipsters bombing around town and the elite athlete's that are found on the velodrome at the world stage there is definitely a growing interest in the sport. Hamilton could get creative and promote ourselves as using the facility to cater to the growing cyclist demographic. If there's a GO stop at Liuna its that much easier for cyclists from anywhere in the GTA to get here...

But JonD, without Pan Am track and field at West Harbour, any incentive for the province to fund GO at LIUNA or at West Harbour is completely lost. The events of this week have undone years of careful planning for revitalizing that area.

I am going to post my message from the Ticats forum here as well before the mods over there remove it. At least here you just get greyed out and booed. lol

"Looks like Go East Mountain has finally crossed 2K supporters as well. 'West Habour - A Legacy Vision' is now the latest post on their main page.

If you want to look at this stadium build as a 'Legacy Vision' (and I know they aren't talking about the Pan Am stadium here but ...), EM isn't one. It works for Football and Soccer from an 'accessiblity' standpoint, but it is not a 'Legacy Vision' at all. Never can there be the warmth that is felt in Ivor Wynne, that 'I am home' feeling, in a location like EM.

West Harbour could at least give us that. But neither are IW or that neighborhood, people. We are missing something here. Seriously. The City and the Cats say IWS has to go. Not all council members I will add, feel that way and I know that for a fact. Many people also have an affection for IWS, but I am sure they feel they have to chose one side to try to ensure the vote doesn't go for one or the other.

A 'None of the Above' is possible' everyone. It truly is and now that the track and field bit is gone, Ivor Wynne is already ready for soccer. We can use these funds to go beyond the $16 million it will cost (from 2006-2014 to upgrade/repair IW), and we could put more money into fixing her up, tearing down Scott Park to create more parking/green field, and add some seat backs, maybe more cover over the North Stand perhaps like a Cannad Inns Stadium in Winnipeg. The first part is already in the city's budget, and we can use some of the federal/pan ams cash for upgrades, and save the future fund for an ampitheatre/athletes villiage at WH?

There is a third choice and I think at least one counciller is already seriously considering it. No reason Bob and the city couldn't make IWS more viable, if we had soccer in there as well. It's already zoned for sports so add 10-20 more games a year with soccer (not sure how long their season is), and man this whole thing just changed today if we allow ourselves to see beyond 2 choices and the vision of council and the tiger-cats, and allow OUR visions to imagine for a moment."

I don't think too many people know the definition of "compromise".......

JM

What is the fixation that you people have with the stadium being located at WH? It seems like no amount of compromise will satify you zealots. Btw, if a stadium isn't built at EM then you can expect that a mini-mall will. Do you people think that the land there will become a nature preserve? Give your heads a shake!

I don't think people are worried about those lands being paved over with box stores although I am sure many of us would love not to see that, but I think the point is more those lands are prime real estate and a stadium isn't needed to do something with those lands.

West Harbour needs funds. The Setting Sail plan is a great one but it's over many years. THis forces an immediate clean-up if the Pan Am Stadium goes in WH. It's about the Future Fund as well and it's proper use.

It isn't at all that the WH supporters don't want to comprimise but simply, there still doesn't seem to be much of a comprimise. The Cats plan is awesome except they still want to use that Future Fund that the board said no to.

Comment edited by lawrence on 2010-07-29 15:45:29

Tybalt said: But JonD, without Pan Am track and field at West Harbour, any incentive for the province to fund GO at LIUNA or at West Harbour is completely lost. The events of this week have undone years of careful planning for revitalizing that area.

Thats why we keep up pressure on council to put the Soccer/TiCat stadium and Velodrome at the WH. The TiCat press conference today was an obvious desperate and uncalculated move - thrown together so quickly that they even offered us our own money.

How much money as AEG, Katz and WhiteStar shown? Nothing as yet. The TigerCats are the only ones putting up some money and yet anyone who says anything positive about the TigerCats on this site gets voted down. Unreal. Yes, the city has the right to determine the final site, they are putting the most money into it. But they can vote anyway they choose come Aug. 10. They actually might like the fact some private investment has been offered for one of the 2 sites the facilitator offered.

Comment edited by HamiltonFan on 2010-07-29 15:58:26

That's a fair enough comment, HamiltonFan. A word of advice: don't sweat the comment scores.

Let me say something positive about the Tiger-Cats then: although I am furious with them for sabotaging Hamilton's chance to stage the premier event at the Pan Ams, I think it's great that they are looking for solutions within the City of Hamilton. I think the solution they are proposing is a bad one, even a very bad one; but it is in Hamilton.

....so he wants to give us $7mil of OUR OWN MONEY!! This wackked-out old school flim-flam man must assume we're stupid. No Future Fund $$s for a suburban greenfield stadium.

ENOUGH OF THE TIGER CATS...STOP INTERFERING WITH OUR CITY PLANNING>>>LEAVE IF YOU MUST!

People take the blinders off. Accepting Ian Troops decision to remove Track and Field from Hamilton is the death of the stadium. The $57 million in funding will surely be cut because there is a limited budget and soccer venues are already in place. There is no 'NEED' for soccer venues. Unless I'm missing something EM and WH were already short $35 million plus before this announcement, any further cut in funding spells the end of this facility no matter your preferred location. We have one chance to save this development. Re-affirm the 15,000 seat stadium at the West Harbour location and it's direct GO train access. If we are successful 'full funding' is in place. Part of the 'legacy' of the Stadium would and could be world class Track and Field events, something not foreign to Hamilton (Spec Indoor Games, Around the Bay Roadrace). Further a 15,000 seat venue would meet the needs of a 'Professional Soccer' team and the original design allows for expansion if warranted for 'CFL Football.'

actually, Whitestar is proposing a world class, larger stadium and has offered to pay for EVERYTHING above the already allocated $110 million. They are proposing to pump in WAY more money than the Cats. Not to mention, some massive spinoffs in the form of mixed use condo developments are proposed by Whitestar and Molinaro at the WH. The level of private money flowing from the Whitestar group is exactly what we've been waiting for in this city. Perhaps the Cats have been too busy posting cheesy $1.50 ads all over the internet to notice, but we don't need them to divert $7 million from the Future Fund. The FF Board has already diverted all $60 million for the WH.

By the way, I got a good laugh reading Scott Mitchells comments from todays presser. I hope he enjoys a few more years at Ivor Wynne since they WILL NEVER play at the WH. I'm holding you to that Scott. I know you live in TO and could care less about Hamilton, but still, we're going to remind of you that comment when a beautiful new stadium is being built at the WH with OUR money.

One good piece of news today IMO is that soccer will be coming here. I personally prefer the sport to track and field, although I won't be seeing any of either unless it's at the WH. Perhaps Katz can get us an MLS team. That would be an amazing legacy for the WH stadium IMO.

"How much money as AEG, Katz and WhiteStar shown? Nothing as yet. The TigerCats are the only ones putting up some money and yet anyone who says anything positive about the TigerCats on this site gets voted down. Unreal. Yes, the city has the right to determine the final site, they are putting the most money into it. But they can vote anyway they choose come Aug. 10. They actually might like the fact some private investment has been offered for one of the 2 sites the facilitator offered."

Actually, AEG, Katz and White Star have offered to pay for the construction of a stadium with a retractable roof on the West Harbour, and all they're asking the city, province, and federal government to pay is what they would had planned to pay all along, $110 million total over the three levels of government. The consortium would pay the rest. I consider that money.

It just happened yesterday, but honestly, that's a day earlier than the ti-cat proposal!

http://www.thespec.com/News/BreakingNews/article/815920

The more news that i hear coming from the Ticats, the less i repect owner Bob Young. To force all this basically at the last moment and to come up with another last minute plan within a few weeks of a decision is the last straw. 1.3 million is lost every year operating the current stadium (ticats paying a whole 2500-3000 per game). Who are the Ticats to dictate to a city that a amphitheatre should be built, this late in the game?. The track and field events are gone because of all this ....why weren't the Ticats arguing across a table a year ago regarding location?. We are getting the soccer...but the finals will be played at BMO field....what is the point..why are we bothering at all??.The Ticats are giving 15 million towards this stadium....so where is the rest of the app 35 million to make it a 25,000 stadium..where is this money?. It's bad enough that 100's of millons is going to be spent on the Pan Am games that nobody watches or even cares about but all this going on is a big joke. The Ticats have been a poor product on the field for years and recently they have been showing how poor a product they are off the field.

Did Bob Young write a cheque for $15 million HamiltonFan? He is proposing to pay $15 mil while whitestar are proposing way more for construction of a 40,000 seat retractable roof stadium. How can you call one offer real money and not the other? Are you Scott Mitchell??

Well HamiltonFan, I'll give you this much - you're a loyal soldier.

I'm announcing tonight a plan to build a Pan Pam Park at the East Mountain site - the best part is, the greenspace is already in place so cost are reduced!

Okay, so where I don't have my facts straight, please let me know. The Velodrome and the community centre within the Velodrome were already in the plan (that's what I read in a May 2009 Spec article). So, no news from today's Ticat announcement there.

The Ticats have "partnered" with Live Nation? What does that mean? Is Live Nation committing money? Guaranteeing shows? I saw the word "consulting" jump out at me - I don't see a financial commitment in that word. 20-25 shows a year? Really? Live Nation shows? From May through September? Holy crap. That's a lot of shows; Hamilton Place (2200 capacity) shows 15 shows online, including theatre, from July to December. Was HECFI consulted on the need for this amphitheatre? I truly LOVE the idea...but I'd like Stone Temple Pilots to play at my backyard BBQ, too. The Ticats tell us that the amphitheatre could also be used for "community programming, with suggestions made for concerts of the week, local theatre, church choir performances, high school graduations and an array of other community uses." How about Adopt-A-Puppy shows, too? Sorry for the sarcasm; wait, no, I'm not...

$5000-$7000 to build the Velodrome and Amphitheatre? Get real. Velodrome $12 million, remediation...I dont'know...did I read $3 million somewhere? Amphitheatre...I don't know...$15 million. That's over $30,000,000 for Pan Am Park - from where does the discrepancy of $25 million come?

So, the Province gives us money for the Pan Am Games (and some re-development), but we give back a good chunk of that money when we buy their land for the EM site. So, not much of a win, there. We also have to use around 90% of the previously approved WH Future Fund monies that were initially deemed to be only for improving the downtown/WH, for the EM site. No win for the allocated downtown/WH there, either. The Ticats offer to give $1.5 million towards the non-stadium Pan Am Park - on what schedule? Lump sum? The current Ticats offer $100,000 annually for WH Pan Am Park maintenance - paid how? For how long? Until the team switches hands? In perpetuity? Taking inflation into account?

Okay. Say all those questions have rosy answers, and the WH/downtown gets a vibrancy injection, and Bob Young gets what he wants (despite the grocery list of reasons why that is not a smart, sustainable development). And...IWS has a nice out-of-the-picture-now game plan, too (whatever that means). We still have not seen a glimpse of a financial forecast for this EM stadium location. What goes on when the Cats aren't playing? Again, a little HECFI weigh in would be nice. How much can we lose annually? What if the team sells? What cut of the much-improved profits (e.g. tax payer supplied parking lot) that will be made at Ticat games does the City get, to put towards the cost building, serving and running an EM stadium (e.g. to pay for tax payer supplied parking lot)?

I'm exhausted.

Comment edited by goin'downtown on 2010-07-29 21:53:52

I am thinking of stepping down as the leader of the HRD. Frankly, I am disappointed with all the forward thinking well researched ideas being supported by the citizens. I think Scott Mitchell would be a suitable replacement for me. I know you may think he is a douchebag, but give him a chance. If you accept him, he may need to move here from Toronto so he can truly make good on his goal of setting us back into the dark ages.

And with all the research that the Ti-Cats have done on this issue, they know that the people behind the velodrome project have stated categorically that they will not support a velodrome at the West Harbour? They know this, right?

http://www.thespec.com/article/768558

Good point about the velodrome. Not only that the "boss" i mean the Ticats plan states the velodrome should be torn down and turned into a "fitness center" after the Pan Am games. Where is the anger in all of this?...did the city make the bid for the Pan Am games or did Bob Young??. Talk about ignorance and arrogance all rolled into one. Does Bob Young realize these sports facilities are supposed to be permanent...and he doesn't own the velodrome?. Maybe we will hear in a few days the velodrome will be moved out of Hamilton as well. The soccer team he wants is in a league that currently averages 4300 per game (a number inflated from attendance in montreal and portland)..5 of the teams are at 2300 and lower. I'm not sure what the players are being paid but i can't see it being profitable and if it isn't MLS..i really can't see it being viable in the long term.

...I was reading some of the statements on the OurCity, OurFuture site...this one caught my eye.

Ron Bennington says,
"The Carnival is in town! And then things go bad. Who's to blame? The carnies for trying to fleece and take advantage of the rubes, or the rubes for being naive enough to fall for the chicanery?

The West is the Best...don't be a rube.

Peace out."

Baldasaro!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7wpNKzuP7E

What the Ticats didn't want you to notice is that they left off the site remediation costs of yesterday's Pan Am Park announcement. Whatever side you're on, you have to start to wonder how open and honest the Ticats are really being when they try to pull something like that.

Comment edited by DanJelly on 2010-07-30 11:06:00

I stopped wondering some time ago. They are anything but open and honest.

Now we have the commissioner of the CFL theatening the city. He is saying that if the stadium isn't built where the Ticats want it and than decide to leave the city, Hamilton will not be considered for an expansion franchise in the future. He states this will end CFL football in Hamilton forever. This shows that the CFL could care less about the city to come out with a statement like that. I think it's time for the city to say no to the Pan Am games and not build a stadium and any real Ticat fan should voice their anger towards Bob Young and Mark Cohon (Cfl Commissioner). If Bob Young decides to move the team out of Hamilton....what is he saying to fans that are actually supporting him?...do these season ticket holders really think they gave a damn about them?..The CFL is a good product on the field and is a great game to watch but it seems to have always attracted clowns. No matter what side of the fence you are on to have the commissioner and the team owner making these threats and holding the city hostage with tax payers money is not acceptable. If the city is smart they will say no to these pan am games.

Yeah, years of careful planning. It was so careful that they had to bank on the city riding Toronto's cotails and getting the pan am games for the area to develop. This council has not done anything for the downtown core to bring people there. They are using the stadium as a smoke and mirrors tactic, it takes their inability to do anything away from them (look at the Lister Block). Careful planning does not exist with the current council

Pxtl commented back on July 29th about the velodromes legacy; it will be a cycling training and competition centre firstly but not neccessarily exclusively.

Hamilton is central to a population base of 5 million people within 50 mile radius. Outside of the BC's Okanagan and areas between Quebecs Laurentians and Eastern Townships there is no better cycling than here. They are out there. Every weekend there are thousands of recreational cyclists in the Golden Horsehoe countryside alone.

A veledrome for on track competition would certainly peak the couriosty of many of weekend warriors if not spark more competitive interest. The base from which to draw future athletes into cycling is enomorous! Given Hamiltons multicultured background where cycling has been a passion for some of those European ethinic communities for a century now those potential kids are gonna see some crazy stuff on a superelevation. And if you've never seen scratch or elimination races, here is a chance.

Better yet maybe the Ontario gaming people ought to consider Keirin style racing. A first in this country. That would make the place self sustaining but unseedy interests may like it too. Hamilton does have an `underworld' belly which ain't to far from the betting tracks. Whoaaa now... too crazy a thought. It's about the sport and pushing the human body into new frontiers.

Still, a velodrome can be multipuropose. Some European tracks like one in San Sebastian Spain are designed to accomodate indoor track and field. The annual Indoor Highlander games could certinaly use a new home. Even the occassional concert, cultural or conference activity can be had in a really cool and unique environment.