Raise the Hammer

A grocery store downtown would be great, but not if it has to be coaxed with taxpayer money. If I owned the Fortino's at Dundurn or the Starsky's on Nash, I'd be ticked or looking for a handout too.

How so? We make offer all kinds of carrots to businesses for other things. Maple Leaf, the Stadium, the Aerotropolis, etc.

Government works in concert with business all the time. Sometimes what's best for the citizens of this city isn't best for the businesses, so the municipal government helps meet them in the middle with a little incentive.

The only difference here is that we're being straight-up mercenary about it instead of more subtle and diplomatic.

Instead of "well, we're going to provide infrastructure subsidies and tax-breaks and we've got some road-widening and highway-access plans to help coax the businesses into this area" we're just being straighforward: half a mill if you want to set up a proper grocery store downtown.

Even a gift of $650K is peanuts, really, considering the costs of real eatate and construction, to say nothing of operating costs.

This is a cheerful incentive but I have my doubts about it serving as a magic carrot. What it should do is clarify how ramshackle the downtown economy really is.

That's right, it's okay to subsidize DiSantis or Maple Leaf but don't you think of spending public money where most of the people live.

But that's different...we're giving gobs of money to one or two people...this is using tax money to benefit thousands of people. Can't have that.

Yes, but they're thousands of the wrong sort of people who don't finance re-election campaigns.

Comment edited by highwater on 2012-07-05 10:44:39

Jason, I think this is one of the few times I actually agree with you.

I think they'll come around on this eventually...and I think King and Bay will be where the store lands...hopefully as part of one of the new condo complexes planned for the area.

Amazing to hear some of the councillor comments...they don't think twice about subsidizing sprawl, knowing that no matter how many new homes are built, we never recoup the subsidy...yet here they won't approve something that will quickly be covered by new development. They even had letters of support from prominent builders who've built condos downtown and want to build more. My long-standing view that council doesn't really care about downtown gets easier and easier to prove.

what we need is a coop market. something that the community owns. I think it would be great fit for downtown hamilton.

Thanks for this excellent report Ryan. I remember the last time there was a downtown grocery store presence, The Barn, at York and Hess, and whenever I was there it was always quite busy, so there seems little doubt that the demand is there.

However, while I guardedly support the kind of incentive that your article addresses, I do have to wonder why no one has sought to set up shop downtown in recent years, given the pent-up demand.

Comment edited by lorne on 2012-07-04 11:15:40

Good article, Ryan. It's gone some way to reducing my antipathy for this handout, but I still have a bunch of reservations. I know when the issue came up at the BNA, we were miles apart from consensus.

Many residents recognized that there are plenty of options for groceries downtown, they just don't look like a traditional supermarket. As a result, a few people resented throwing money at a potential competitor for existing businesses who have been down in the core for ages, and worry that a supermarket will put pressure on these independent grocers and markets.

As someone who's lived downtown for six years now, I am not eager to go back to the days of empty store fronts on James N. because these vendors can't compete with a box-store with an urban façade.

If Council decides to support this, I sincerely hope they do their homework and consult with existing businesses downtown and confirm that they are on side. Otherwise I just see this as picking favourites and interfering with those "market forces" that we're supposed to be bowing to these days. It's not like rent downtown is super expensive--if the demand were really so "pent-up", why don't we already have more grocers downtown?

Comment edited by Borrelli on 2012-07-04 13:43:51

Sounds good to me ... i live near Gage Park on Cumberland .. and im tierd of the NO FRILES set up something like Fortinos or Sobeys good meats with a Butcher on site and freash Vegs and freash Fish as well

There's no Denninger's out there? That's surprising the way Denninger's permeates throughout this city.

The people who are most distant from supermarkets live right downtown. If you live west of Queen, north of Wilson or east of Walnut, you're probably within a kilometre of a grocery store. This shortfall, as I see it, is primarily about serving the needs of those who live right in the heart of downtown.

And EcDev has already put its finger on the sticky nature of pitching that demographic:

http://www.investinhamilton.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/DowntownProfile.pdf

By their own estimation, downtown represents about a fifth of Ward 2's entire population, but is also overwhelmingly made up of single, childless renters in low-income households.

There are 23,400 jobs downtown generating an average salary of just under $54K, but only 8,300 residents (~5,300 of whom are LICO).

How many years of adding 120 residents (which I believe is the annual average) will it take to achieve some sort or optimal balance?

It's such a big deal for some (on Council) to consider a downtown grocery store/supermarket...grant or no-grant...because ...because... Because the people who shrug or pull a face at the prospect drive. They're disinterested. If you listen to the 'outsiders' commenting, or in the way they ask the questions they did, it's quite clear that there's disinterest going on. Never mind the complete and utter disconnect.

I'm sounding cynical here, but I guess I'm a little fed up with the shitty stewardship that's been provided the downtown core for more than two decades now. And this council...even the outlying members...seem quite prepared to add to this legacy. '

I'm not saying that Council should make it their business to make this happen in the form of a grant, and there are other ways to make things happen if you really, truly believe in the merits of things happening, period. But I guess I've reached the point where I'm tired of the tenor of Council.

Meh.

What a wishy-washy mishmash most of the proceedings at 71 Main Street West consistently seem.

The sad thing is that in the two weeks since I wrote that, we've only seen more examples reinforcing my final statement.

I can't agree more with Adrian here. It is a total mess.

Lots of grocery stores downtown. Let's be honest about what this money is hoping to attract: a major chain grocery store selling boxed frozen food catering to "non-ethnic" tastes. If you want fresh produce downtown has plenty of stores that offer that. Fresh bread? Ditto. Meat and fish? Again small stores exist. But if you want a President's Choice frozen meal in a box you need to walk or take the bus to Fortino's.

If the neighbourhood can support a grocery store, it will. Handing over money to attract a major chain to an area their own market data seems to indicate is not viable isn't a long term solution to a largely manufactured problem. People point to the money handed to developers in other parts of the city as a reason to allow this to happen, well two-wrongs don't make a right folks. What has macroeconomic engineering accomplished in other parts of the city over the past few decades? Has it been good for Hamilton? Do we have a proven track record with these types of schemes? Why will this be any different? Will the numbers still ad up after 5 years or are we just going to "rent" a grocery store for that long?

We have a very healthy community of independent grocers and the market in downtown Hamilton. Wooing a big chain for them to compete against, subsidized by taxpayer money, all for the promised "If we build it they will come" (who?) doesn't pass the smell (or common sense) test to me.

Throwing money around may buy you friends… but generally not the ones you want.

But meh, what's another 600k right?

Comment edited by Kiely on 2012-07-05 14:52:39

We can't all afford convenience store or boutique pricing. Bring on a chain store if it helps keeps costs to affordable levels. If I want to pay for something top shelf, I'll go to the market and pick it up.

B&T and Grace aren't boutique, Pane del sol sells some of the cheapest bread in the city and the market often has excellent prices on produce.

I don't think you know what I'm talking about.

Probably not, since they don't advertise, I've never heard of them, and have no idea how they stack up price, selection or quality wise.

I shop at the market. Depending on what, where and when you go you can find deals, but not always. I pick up my bread from the Italian bakery there (bottom floor near the back since a loaf is $1.50. Some of the produce is competitively priced but if you don't get there by 9 it's all picked over or gone completely.

I don't think you know what you're talking about.

People have commented about pent-up demand ,a large customer base and good future prospects for a downtown supermarket. You think about it and wonder how could it be that no major supermarket chain wants to set up in the core?

Are they mad? They have extensive well-developed supply chains that are already serving their stores in the suburbs and just outside of the core. How much more effort would it take to service one more store just a couple kilometers away?

Why, it almost seems like they don't know a great opportunity when it presents itself; wouldn't first-to-market benefits flow to the company that has the vision to set up here before the inevitable rush of me-toos follow in kind?

I've been thinking about this a lot, looking for the strongest reason for those players' decisions, year after year, to not set up shop in the centre of one of the largest cities in the Province. Thinking about how they run their distribution empires, I think I may have stumbled upon the reason for this puzzling situation.

I would like to propose that the reason major grocers will not establish themselves in downtown Hamilton is: Mixed Income.

What, you say? But isn't mixed income one of the things that makes a given area a better functioning community. Isn't inclusiveness essential to the creation of a successful City that continues to grow and prosper; a place for all?

Yes, of course. But, how does mixed-income fit into the picture for large grocers, who routinely split their brands into as many as five different price points in the same market? All of the majors do this.

In the near east end people are positively spoiled, by local standards, by the presence not one but two No Frills (Loblaw owned) locations, just a few kilometers between. Toward the wealthier west end we have Fortinos (now also Loblaw ownned) serving primarily people with cars. In other markets the same company operates under additional names like Zehr's, Valu-Mart, Independent, Maxi, Superstore, and others.

Each one of the sub-brands is tailored to a specific demographic. Stores are carefully situated, decorated, and priced to fit into a specific point on the price spectrum, a division that they've created over years via acquisition of rivals and price-splitting. You can buy that same can of peas at a wide variety of prices depending upon which store you shop at. It might be only 89 cents at No Frills but could be $1.45 at a Loblaws in Forest Hill. The other stores the company owns would feature the exact same can of peas, coming through the same distribution channels, for varying prices in between.

Each neighbourhood gets the store brand that fits with it's demographic profile. If a neighbourhood experiences gentrification then a Valu-mart may be upgraded to a Loblaws, for instance.

The other companies maintain the same division between their self-defined micro-markets, just the names are different.

So here's the problem, perhaps:

What brand of store would Loblaw Cos. put in at say, Main and Caroline?

If they put a No Frills in then relatively wealthy downtowners and office workers will be getting that can of peas at a price that is below what they would be willing to pay, which could draw more-profitable business away from their Fortinos outlet a couple kilometers to the west.

If they put a Fortinos or Loblaws in then they might worry that the up-market tone of those stores, carefully created by layering in more attractive store finishing, shelving and lighting, wider aisles, in-store bakeries and the like, could be diminished by the presence of conspicuously lower-income shoppers. Those same shoppers are unlikely to buy the premium-priced products that provide the profits to pay for the fancier stores' interiors.

I'm not saying that I like how the biggies have segmented the market but it makes sense to keep this in mind when trying to find a way to break the logjam which keeps stores of this scale out of the core.

Maybe there is some way for the biggies to address this stumbling block, with a little help. But they may not want a solution for what to them is not a problem.

Or maybe the right company would not be one of the major majors. It may be more appropriate to solicit a company on the next level below the majors.

Maybe Highland, Avondale, Fiesta Farms, Big Bee or someone else like that would like to create what for them would be a flagship store here. Those players wouldn't face the same conundrum as the majors: cannibalizing their own (perhaps over-developed) sub-brands.

Comment edited by lakeside on 2012-07-05 15:15:22

You raise an issue that's been brought up on this site and elsewhere: What do people who envision a 'revitalization' of the downtown-core, specifically between King and Cannon, James and Wellington to look like? Specifically, who do they think that developers will be keying on?

A 'mix' is a nice concept. But the truth is that in order to have this huge gem of a portion of Hamilton be developed, it's not going to be leveraged to 'affordable housing'. It's possible that some of it will fall within that category, but doubtful that the tremendous inertia will be reversed and magic unfold primarily within it.

Ironically, this ties into a comment I made in another thread today here as well as an op-ed I published on my own site, both dealing with understanding what precisely we're talking about. Because it would be a shame (as well as a shock) to find that the redevelopment of our long-abandoned downtown-core would end up alienating people who have been patient for change to come.

Comment edited by mystoneycreek on 2012-07-05 17:41:36

Spelling error in title. How many times did I read that and not notice?

Longo’s 48,000 sq. ft. supermarket connected to the new Maple Leaf Square condominium and retail complex in downtown Toronto is a good example of a new full-service urban grocery store approachable from street level. It seems to have some underground parking but it does not have acres of adjacent surface parking.

Before voting next Monday on whether or not to loan/grant almost $10 Million to Vrancor for its Homewood Suites hotel/condo development, Hamilton city council should direct staff to explore with Vrancor and any interested supermarket chain the feasibility of roughing-in space for a full-service grocery store (though probably smaller and less opulent than the new Longo’s supermarket in Toronto) as part of or adjacent to the Homewood Suites complex.

VRANCOR
• $125m development w/ 628 condo units, 311 hotel rooms and 20K sq ft of retail space (facing $80m, 152K sq ft McMaster Health Campus)
• Approximately a block from Copps Coliseum
• Median income of neighbourhood below the city average
• Between 2006-2011, population of the surrounding square km shrank slightly

MAPLE LEAF SQUARE
• $500m development w/ 872 condo units, 167 hotel rooms, 900 underground parking spots, 7K sq ft daycare, 230K sq ft office space and 110K sq ft of retail space,
• Approximately a block from the ACC and Rogers Centre.
• Median income of neighbourhood about twice the city average
• Between 2006-2011, population of the surrounding square km more than quadrupled

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/1128354--census-condo-boom-driving-up-toronto-s-density

DD, I hear your frustration but an uplift is what everyone is looking for. Incomes of various levels living close to each other. That's a vibrant taxpaying community and what a downtown should strive for.
A bit more discretionary income is what will bring more services downtown. Too much money raises costs and drives out part of that mix. Its a delicate balance.

Lakesides excellent observations of how big businesses prefer homogenous consumers driving maximum profitability needs addressing. Presumably a mid-level store with a slightly wider range of priced goods would provide the best solution.
The bigger question is then to provide meaningful jobs for everyone in that same community.

This is why we can't have nice things.

That is all it is.

Yup. 'Rage in Hamilton'.

So you're equating white people with 'the rich'. You're equating 'people with money'...essentially middle-class people, you know, the most besieged of citizens everywhere over the past forty years...with -seemingly- obnoxious, unconscionable behaviour.

Interesting. It's rather reminiscent of the generalizations and stereotyping that goes the other way.

I'd like to know how you see (through your lenses) the re-development of James-to-Wellington, King-to-Cannon/Barton.

Clearly you don't want to see 'white, rich people' creating development and you surely don't want them moving in. So I'm curious as to what you'd like to see unfold. And how you envision it unfolding, at the very least, given the nature of this city and how constrained it is initiatives-wise. (I'm talking about creativity in development, I'm talking about putting disparate pieces together to form a much better whole, etc.)

I hope you'll take the time to describe it all to us.

Isn't that anti-gentrification just a red herring for people to squelch good ideas? I mean how can you exclude successful people? I can't see how this has moved along social/racial lines. This isn't America and we are not all living in the ghetto. Gets me down that Downtown downing of any progress.

apparently this guy thinks there are no rich people who aren't white. And apparently downtown Hamilton should aspire to keep anyone out who hasn't been sent with a one-way bus ticket from TO.

apparently this guy thinks there are no rich people who aren't white.

...and no poor people who are.

I know a number of poor families of all colours I could introduce him to...

There are several challenges to putting a grocery store (and we really mean supermarket) downtown.

The first is the obvious one detailed here: politics. Municipal politicians have their campaigns funded by developers. The most expensive input for the product developers build is land. So they prefer unserviced greenfields to fully serviced downtown land and the role of council has developed to assist land speculators in winning their bets rather than best representing the city as a whole (and this is true of most municipalities). The fact that one councillor would suggest the money could better be spent on roads bears this out. Roads open up new greenfield development.

The second is amalgamation. It only requires a cursory look at the Hamilton ward map to show the downtown wards represent a clear minority on council. So when it comes to directing dollars away from sprawl to urban renewal ... well, good luck. It also explains, in part, the failure of two way conversion (note the two way conversion has been north/south and not east/west) and the foot dragging on transit initiatives.

The third is that businesses have concluded they need not service communities as in the past. Economies of scale demands local, smaller, neighbourhood based outlets be closed in favour of big box model outlets. And people--or consumers if you prefer--will get in their cars and expend their own resources for the same services to which they could once walk. So, it is not just grocery stores, but also banks and almost any other retail amenity you could name.

Overcoming these challenges is going to require something greater than the isolated struggles of urban activists fighting the same battles in different cities all over North America.

Great comment. Glad to see this kind of response to a substantive effort such as Ryan's here. (And in The Spec today.)

The first is the obvious one detailed here: politics. Municipal politicians have their campaigns funded by developers. The most expensive input for the product developers build is land. So they prefer unserviced greenfields to fully serviced downtown land and the role of council has developed to assist land speculators in winning their bets rather than best representing the city as a whole (and this is true of most municipalities). The fact that one councillor would suggest the money could better be spent on roads bears this out. Roads open up new greenfield development.

Absatively. And there's little to complain about re: the status quo as long as it's passively allowed to be sustained.

The second is amalgamation. It only requires a cursory look at the Hamilton ward map to show the downtown wards represent a clear minority on council. So when it comes to directing dollars away from sprawl to urban renewal ... well, good luck. It also explains, in part, the failure of two way conversion (note the two way conversion has been north/south and not east/west) and the foot dragging on transit initiatives.

Again, yeah. As for the 'Good luck', I get your cynicism, but considering that very little has actually been mustered over the years against this default, I can actually shift the cynicism to optimism.

The third is that businesses have concluded they need not service communities as in the past. Economies of scale demands local, smaller, neighbourhood based outlets be closed in favour of big box model outlets. And people--or consumers if you prefer--will get in their cars and expend their own resources for the same services to which they could once walk. So, it is not just grocery stores, but also banks and almost any other retail amenity you could name.

Once more, yes. There's no question that for the majors, what you're saying is their truth. But a) this means that unless we can find a way to leverage one into Jackson Square/City Centre, we're best to focus on a homegrown approach (co-op) and b) I have to wonder that if we hadn't seen the decline of Jackson Square, if the entire downtown-core had been better managed, were it still shining, would this issue seem like such pie-in-the-sky?

Overcoming these challenges is going to require something greater than the isolated struggles of urban activists fighting the same battles in different cities all over North America.

Finally, yes. 'Urban activists' in Hamilton comprise a very, very small number. Even those aligned with them don't amount to much. These battles will change only when we're able to properly muster the numbers that reflect the fact that Council works for us, that we're the Employers and they're the Employees. Until we accept our responsibilities, our authority, we'll see these situations unfolding again and again and again. (Next up? AEGD.)

Comment edited by mystoneycreek on 2012-07-07 11:50:00

"At street level, he proposes a Shoppers Drug Mart, LCBO outlet and a grocery store, which he'd like to see occupy two storeys."

http://raisethehammer.org/article/1586/vranich_shares_details_of_downtown_development_plan

Hmmmmm $50 million for a money losing football team to build a stadium in the exact same place they pissed and moaned for years that they couldn't make money in....... No problem.

$650,000 for something that could have lasting and positive change on the downtown.....Nope.

Cowards! Cowards! Cowards!

Burlington's only downtown supermarket is a No Frills. It's around 2km from the Fairview Longo's and 3km from the Longo's Fortinos.

The Dundurn Fortino's is around 1.5km from the Westdale Metro which in turn is around 2.5km from the Main West Fortino's, which in turn is around 1.5km from the University Plaza Metro, which is around 1.5km from the Metro on Governor's Road.

The Dundurn Fortino's is around 3.3km from both Danny's No Frills and the Barton Food Basics, which are around 2.5km apart.

The Dundurn Fortino's is around 1.5km from Hess/York, one-time site of The Barn. There is apparently a restrictive covenant on that lot now.

There appear to be two sites far enough from existing supermarkets to suggest the possibility of a business case: Bay & George and Cannon & Wellington. The former seems considerably more likely than the latter.

Typo: Burlington's downtown No Frills is "around 2km from the Fairview Longo's and 3km from the Fairview Fortinos."

$650,000 should cover about two years' hydro.

2 things.

1. Turning down the loan because it is 'a lot of money' is myopic short term thinking. Scary that a councillor holds power and is so short sighted.

2. Co-op grocery store sounds promising.