Raise the Hammer

The joke is on you mann - We don't have the money for pot holes either - we just paid for Mississauga's new LRT so any money for your potholes will be going to their streets. Time to face the facts - We ALL lose with this. Your taxes are going somewhere else. If you define that as success, you have some inferiority issues that I can't, nor have time, to help you with.

Hamilton is a suburban city ... unlike Mississauga or Brampton, for example? I assume you're being ironic (but one never knows).

Well, the fed budget just included a small fund for transit upgrades... perhaps we should ask them?

The funding for transit projects including LRT is from the Provincial government through sale of assets and other revenue tools. Even if Hamilton does not get the benefits of transit especially LRT, which has high Return On Investment (ROI) in terms of future growth and development stimulated by the line, we will still pay for LRT in other municipalities. This will mean that other Cities will benefit from LRT, while we remain mired in small-mindedness, division and distrust. Growth requires leadership and Hamilton City Council has demonstrated very little when it comes to LRT.

Comment edited by asingh on 2015-04-22 10:55:34

Ryan, great article contrasting the attitude prevalent within Hamilton City Hall and the sharp contrast with progressive, visionary and rational approach taken by other municipalities including Brampton, Mississauga and Kitchener-Waterloo. The divisiveness on City Council is troubling and a common vision is difficult to develop in this climate. Councillors need to understand that while they were elected from their Ward, they have a fiduciary duty to put the interests of the municipality first.

Comment edited by asingh on 2015-04-22 10:53:39

Our Hamilton councillors are a bunch of a-holes, SOBs, and for what they have done to our city in regards to LRT, I hope that they experience a slow and painful demise, much like our city because of what they have done.

Won't happen until people actually vote. We have the council we deserve.

Hamilton will be competing with Mississauga-Brampton and Kitchener-Waterloo to attract growing businesses and workers. Those cities I'm sure are deeply grateful to us for trashing our LRT plan so the choice becomes alot easier for those businesses and workers.

All you suburban residents in Hamilton complaining about how your property taxes keep going up, I don't want to hear another word out of you.

this is nothing but pandering for votes. it would have went to mississauga regardless of if we did our due diligence or not.
the ontario liberals are too concerned with the next election to care about what really needs to get done.
hence the sale of hydro rather than the mature and responsible way of funding public transit; levies on personal vehicles and carbon creators.

That's something that is often missed in discussions on LRT. In order for Hamilton to attract working professionals and newcomers, both of which are important given the aging population, the City has to develop infrastructure to support this growth. Other municipalities seem to get this but in Hamilton we seem to have difficulty of thinking and planning for the future in a consistent way.

IMHO, Hamilton must do several things first before another LRT attempt.

1. By some means you have to start a process which leads to some kind of fair and stable area wide transit funding that is similar in your suburban and urban areas. Rural areas will have to decide how much funding/service they really want to pay for.

2. Establish an area express bus system, please don't call it BRT, its not. Bus only lanes are a must for an Express Bus system! They are used in most cities in North America, they have never harmed business and by concentrating riders they provide more foot traffic for street front businesses, cars never do! Cars have been shown in most environments to reduce foot traffic and to actually harm street front businesses. Where ever you have large busy on street express bus stops/stations you have busy stores.

3. Use transit as a way to tie development and density in key urban and suburban areas.

4. Alter your BLAST network to include more frequent connections to GO Stations.

5. Link bicycle commuting and transit at many levels. The first or last km of the transit trip. Have neighborhood or area bike travel corridors linked to area traffic generators and HSR bus layover stations. Establish a real city wide segregated bike lanes that link major transit and traffic nodes.

6. During the entire process develop a list of passenger assisting technologies and ideas that can be easily and cheaply implemented. Paper and digital maps that are actually pocket size, (Ex. TTC'S Ride Guide). Frequency mapping of transit routes, being able to tell how frequent service is just by the size or color of bus route on the map. Paper and digital schedule information everywhere not just on transit properties and major transit points like malls. Buses actually painted different colors for different types of routes (many examples of this world wide). Encouraging local business links so you can combine all or the majority of bus stops with food and other service amenities as much as possible. Have the public encouraged to input new ideas and actually implement them.

7. Use local historic organizations and local transit geeks to provide materials that establish a real history and community involvement in transit. Provide a corporate and community history project involving transit and a physical places or marketing tools to show off the results using available public markets and festivals. All of this is designed to raise the awareness of the HSR in the community and the awareness of the community to the HSR.

One more thing, make sure the next LRT attempt has a starter line which not only serves local passenger attractors but neighborhood ones and GO stations as well. One problem of the BLAST NETWORK maps is that they don't show area and important local locations that each line serves. This is implied but never is made clear on maps that the public have seen. This means the starter line might be more than one line at a time but key portions of two or three with an affordable capital cost. Be prepared to pay your 1/3 share of LRT capital costs from the beginning. Save no less than 50% of your yearly gas tax funding into a future rapid transit account this will added with other priority funding plans, build up a 1/3 funding slice rather quickly. Even the attempt at this shows senior levels you are really serious about this. Lastly this has to made clear to everyone that this next starter line no matter where it is, is the beginning of a network not a single one off line. Your area will be serviced it might not happen in phase 1 but it will happen, it sounds stupid but its crucially important that everyone understands this.

It's funny to think that with his waffling, and mismanagement - between LRT and the Stadium, that Bratina arguably did more tangible damage (beyond reputational) to Hamilton in his term than Ford did to Toronto. A sad comment indeed.

You do realize that the taxes you advocate were put forth as part of the previous minority Liberal government's Revenue Tools. All of which were vetoed by the MPP for Hamilton Centre, Andrea Horwath.

Hamilton not only shot itself in the foot, but all of Ontario. Thanks Andrea! I live in your riding and vote in every election.

To be fair, Horwath had no actual power over the decision. It was the McGuinty government's call to cave on this and find other sources for the needed revenue.

Obviously I'm disappointed in Horwath since raising taxes to fund transit is exactly what her party is supposed to stand for.... but it ultimately wasn't her call so she can't really bear the blame.

Comment edited by Pxtl on 2015-04-22 13:20:14

The BLAST network was only ever a conceptual plan and it was not well thought out. Only the A and B lines have had the proper analysis and justification for implementation. This was a case of staff starting with an acronym and filling in the routes to justify the other letters.

Here's what the civic leaders in Mississauga and Brampton did - they linked their LRT line to GO. They made the Province's priority their priority.

And here's what citizens in Mississauga and Brampton did - they elected the party in power to serve as their local MPPs.

Yes the LRT costs ALMOST double than the B-Line in Hamilton but it is estimated that it will carry MORE THAN FOUR TIMES as many passengers!

And Brampton & Mississauga elected Mayors, one a former Cabinet Minister, from the governing party too.

At this point we're barely competing. The only thing driving growth here is that fact we're cheap relative to other 905 suburbs. Apart from that I see very little in forward thinking as it regards infrastructure, transit and the economy.

Burlington, Oakville and Mississauga are full of shiny office towers for companies that Hamilton has no success attracting here. Look for K-W to eclipse us in this regard as well.

Actually, it was. It was a minority government that required NDP support to survive. The government put these Revenue Tools on the table and Andrea Horwath vetoed them all.

Again, the government needed NDP support. Indeed, the election only happened when the NDP withdrew its support.

If she had instead pushed for them, they would be in place today.

Hamilton city council should be embarrassed by this.

A round of sarcastic applause to Hamilton City Council on this. I hope they're pleased with themselves. Yet another victory for caveman politics in this city, with all apologies to cavemen.

And our last mayor was a prominent Liberal who is running for Hamilton East-Stoney Creek under the Liberal banner in the upcoming federal election. He was the single biggest obstacle to LRT in Hamilton.

And the Liberal candidates who ran in Hamilton in the last provincial election were opposed to any rapid transit and wanted to build express buses instead. Hamilton is a joke to the Liberals, mainly because Hamilton's a joke to it's own leaders.

Is this sarcasm? Or sheer stupidity? Hard to tell...

This is a false statement. The Liberal candidate in my riding of Hamilton Centre was consistently pro-LRT.

Andrea Horvath has done nothing for Hamilton, period.

Though, unlike the Mayors of Brampton and Mississauga he never held office for the Liberal party and may not after the Federal election. The mayor of Brampton, Linda Jeffrey, was a Cabinet Minister in both the Wynne and McQuinty governments. That buys you a lot.

Council was, and is, the single biggest obstacle to the LRT in Hamilton and they are still where we left them. In office.

I'd hate myself right now if I were Chad, Judy, Lloyd, or any other of those stooges. They should be publicly shamed for screwing Hamilton this way.

A little thought experiment. You're gonna spend a billion dollars on a capital expenditure. To which of the following would you send this kind of money with greater confidence:

1. Somewhere whiny and indecisive, without vision or direction, a history of watering down projects and underperforming on them, while wasting large amounts of capitol on fruitless foolishness, such as lawsuits for having to do an environmental assessment before paving a watershed, lawsuits against a crown corporation that will certainly fail, that uses technicalities to spend improvement capitol on filling potholes it can't afford to fill, only to go broke in the end anyway, while being obtuse and not open to progress, having an explicit policy of supporting and blessing sprawl.

2. Somewhere with a clear vision of how it wants to develop, articulated well and with commitments and steps taken to make it happen, with clear intensification goals and milestones, well connected to the rest of the region, with employers and higher density developers attracted to the location, committed to repairing mistakes of the past, and showing evidence of same.

I know which of the two I would invest in with greater confidence of getting a bigger picture return on investment. Hamilton deserves higher order transit and all day GO. However I see it stuck in an identity crisis the likes of which one has to look to Detroit to find a comparison. Not to be negative - everything is fixable - this too.

As for 10 years until all day GO? Glad I didn't wait up.

Comment edited by mikeonthemountain on 2015-04-22 20:26:48

You're assuming that getting more voters out will change things. Not sure I understand why you'd think this.

For starters, incumbents are returned more than 90% of the time. And then there's the reality that no matter who you vote in, no matter how confident you are in their abilities...beyond the fact that they're only one Councillor amongst fifteen...you cannot passively control how they vote or how they behave.

In the words of your resident pundit:

"I'm inclined to think elections are overrated. If you vote for a candidate once every four years but don't get involved in the meantime, it doesn't really matter much who you vote for. Once politicians get inside the Bubble, it's impossible to keep any kind of perspective without ongoing, substantive interaction with 'regular voters' for grounding.

As for what makes a good politician, I think it comes down more to temperament and broad intellectual framework than to a specific set of political beliefs.

A smart, patient, well-educated, open-minded, intellectually humble councillor will generally follow a sensible process of getting informed and land on a sensible policy that does a good job of leveraging the facts of an issue and bridging the hopes, fears and contradictions of the electorate and the various interest parties.

Here are some of the pitfalls that render councillors incompetent:

• Ambition - voting to maximize upward political mobility
• Megalomania - voting from an over-inflated sense of self
• Anger - voting to punish enemies
• Fear - voting to avoid risks
• Partisanship - voting along party lines
• Dogmatism - voting along ideological lines
• Laziness - phoning in votes instead of engaging the issues
• Stubbornness - refusing to cooperate with others or compromise

Left isolated from the outside world, just about anyone will fall prey to one or more of these pitfalls, which is why it's so important for citizens to: a) elect councillors who will allow themselves to be engaged, and b) keep up their end of that engagement between elections."

This council is an embarrASSment. Anyone that doubts it should take a drive on Tremaine Rd. in Milton and see the Velodrome that we lost. When the province offers to pay all the capital costs of a much-needed infrastructure project, you ACCEPT THE MONEY MORONS. I live on the mountain so I know that there is a wide spread dismissal towards the downtown. This city is deeply divided. I feel sick to my stomach.

The provincial government never included the revenue tools as part of their (pre-election) budget. While Metrolinx recommended one set, and the Golden Commission another set, there was never any movement made to actually utilize any.

It's a five minute walk between the B-Line LRT and the Hunter Street terminal- shorter than/comparable to the distance to connect to Port Credit GO and Cooksville GO stations along the Mississauga/Brampton line. If you had a chance to review the GO Regional Express Rail plan, you'll note this is where the majority of new GO Rail service will be coming as part of the 10 year expansion strategy. The James Street North project will really only offer limited express service for the mid-term and will be less accessible to the majority of residents- especially those on the Mountain.

About half of the B-Line corridor interlines to GO Bus routes 16- Hamilton Express (leaves every 15-30 minutes), 18- Aldershot (connects to the train at Aldershot) and 47- 407 West (connects to Oakville, Burlington, Mississauga, Brampton and Toronto).

I guess that means you're happy to be paying for Peel's progress while we languish?

Psychopaths generally don't suffer from embarassment. Likely this is a success for them on some level we don't know about.

I am presently in Vancouver. I was reading about the Bramptom Mississauga announcement while riding the LRT in from the airport. Hamilton where the losers think they're right and the winners have left.

That would assume that this is not what they were actively working for, and that these kind of people give a fuck about anyone or anything at all.

Why do people keep saying that Hamilton's LRT does not connect to GO? The A-LINE passes both GO stations in Hamilton. The B-LINE would feed the A-LINE. The promise was for two LRT lines. The system included GO. It is this kind of basic fucking ignorance of the project that is lethal. Advocates have been too nice and patient with people that still DO NOT EVEN get it. I understand that it feel's hopeless when 900CHML plays weekly softball with the mayor of fabrication.

I would like to thank all those patient people that Quixotically flailed articulate facts against a corrupt city ruled by ignorance.

Like I said before, egg this shameless councillors. Bastards should not be allowed to get away with this.

You know how dividing things by larger numbers works, right? An analysis we've got forthcoming has the B Line as one of the highest-density potential transit corridors in the region.

The largest infusion of transportation capital in provincial history is underway, to modernize the region, and all you guys want is a couple of buses and an overpriced garage to put them in? With the rest of your share you'll pave a few lanes, only to smash your cars up on potholes after a couple of winters anyway. This is about as wise as spending money you've saved for a house ... on cigarettes. At least your garbage incinerator will be cutting edge lmao. Absolutely no rocket science to be found in the Hammer, you got that right.

Comment edited by mikeonthemountain on 2015-04-23 08:26:44

Here's some of that Hamiltonian self-loathing I've been reading about...

According to several reports the A Line was to be built after the B Line had been in operation for about 10-15 years. The LRT must directly attach to GO Transit stations, no 5 minute walks to the B Line allowed. The province wants direct connections to its GO Stations. Yes, the province was to fund the A and B line but not at the same time, that was never going to happen. Simply because there are far too many competing systems asking for funding in too many areas of the province.

We also have to think about the push many cities are going to force on the province to fund phase 2 lines as well. For example, phase 2 of the Eglinton Ave LRT or many other possible Toronto lines. Phase 2 of Ottawa's LRT system, phase 2 of Waterloo's system all have impressive numbers in the amount of people they are going to carry and will be direct competitors against any funding in Hamilton. Hell, even London Ontario is now considering some sort of VIVA like BRT system that's a lot of rapid transit lines to line up for funding.

The City is really going to have to bring in its "A Game" when convincing senior levels of government in the next round of transit funding as well as being prepared to pay a 1/3 share to show its really serious.

And here's what the party in power did in in 2010-2011: They didn't build something, at a cost of $1.1 billion, in order to save a handful of seats.

ontariondp.ca/gas_plants_report_shows_liberal_cover_up_of_a_liberal_cover_up

In light of the precedent, spending $1.6 billion to actually build something is doubtless easier.

And here's what the PR flac for an institution that is affixed to the teat of provincial funding did: obfuscate.

Your population density figures are irrelevant for deciding whether urban Hamilton has enough population to warrant rapid transit. They have been debunked over and over again. Please have the decency to at least address those arguments: i.e. that what matters is the density of the urban areas and the densities along the corridor, not the density of a farmer's field in Flamborough! The urban area of Hamilton is on 228 km^2 the 84% of Hamilton that is rural doesn't matter when considering urban issues that depend on urban population density!

For example,

http://raisethehammer.org/article/1541/ http://www.raisethehammer.org/comment/96... https://raisethehammer.org/comment/11059...

and many others

When you keep bring up deliberately misleading data and ignoring the obvious criticisms, that is trolling!

Comment edited by kevlahan on 2015-04-23 09:31:29

McGuinty Liberals promise to build two rapid transit lines in Hamilton: Aug 2007
McGuinty Liberals commit $3M funding to James North GO train platform: Mar 26 2008
Metrolinx Board directs staff to complete BCAs for all unfunded Big Move Top 15 projects: Late 2008
Metrolinx completes Benefit Case Analysis for King-Main LRT issued: Feb 2010
Kathleen Wynne becomes Premier: Jan 26, 2013
Rapid Ready report received by Council, submitted to Metrolinx: Feb 25, 2013
Wynne Liberals commit $44M funding to James North GO station: Feb 28, 2014
Wynne Liberals win majority government: June 12, 2014
Premier Wynne asks that Hamilton LRT connect directly with James North GO station: Jan 27, 2015

The Province supported Hamilton's LRT process all along and never raised concerns about lack of connection to GO until early this year!

The B-line will be a very short walk from the main Hunter Street station: the actual distance is more or less the same as the distance between the Union Bus station and the TTC subway. This is not unreasonable and should definitely count as "connected".

The A-line would connect both stations.

Maybe the Province was never serious in its repeated promises to "build two LRT lines in Hamilton" since 2007, but that's not Hamilton's fault. What precisely does a 2007 promise to build two LRT mean if there are no actual plans to do it in the foreseeable future (i.e. the next 10-15 years)? That's no promise at all.

The City made every mistake in the book on this project, but the Province aided and abetted them. The complaint about connection to GO should have been raised seriously in the 2010 BCA if it was really a deal-breaker for the Province!

Comment edited by kevlahan on 2015-04-23 09:52:18

For that matter, the Province has also broken its promise to Hamilton of all day GO service by 2015. We're getting neither GO nor LRT and using lack of connection to minimal GO service as an excuse to cancel an LRT project promised and under study since 2007 is the height of machiavellian arrogance!

Here, let's put this to bed:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/8091...

Keep in mind our employment data under-reports McMaster.

And I don't know how to embed an image into the post, will edit if someone can instruct.

Comment edited by higgicd on 2015-04-23 10:35:56

I think we all knew (including bratina) that the plan would fail once Staff decided on King Street as the central route.
Too meandering, expensive, and at times narrow.

It should have been planned for Main Street.

At least we have 10-15 years to redesign it properly.

Thanks, Chris.

For LRT it is relevant to include students as well as staff at McMaster and the hospital. There are around 30,000 students (undergrad, grad) at McMaster. Are they included as "employment"?

The total McMaster campus is 196 ha, and there are about 30,000 students, 7400 staff. That should make for about 190/ha, much higher than the figure you quote.

http://www.mcmaster.ca/avpira/statistics...

Comment edited by kevlahan on 2015-04-23 10:47:05

King St was chosen partly because of its higher density and better pedestrian experience, but mostly to avoid "impacting" traffic flow on Main.

However, the 2010 BCA had no problems at all with the King choice. But they did recommend Main be converted to two way. Staff, in a misguided attempt to pre-emptively head off controversy from motorists, decided to not act on that recommendation.

Comment edited by kevlahan on 2015-04-23 10:43:04

This is population (from 2011 Census) and employment (from InfoCanada, where uni employment is strangely understated) within 800m of each stop, so the density context in which each station is located. Considering the Province wants us to achieve a target of 200 people + jobs / hectare in the downtown, I'd say we're doing pretty good.

Oh, and to answer your question, no students. Flawed data but the best there is for this type of work.

As I just added to my previous comment, McMaster has a density of very close to 200 jobs/hectare as well. That is pretty good: the two main nodes for LRT both have a total of 200 people + jobs/hectare!

And, as I just pointed out, McMaster actually has around 200 population and employment per Hectare as well (once you count students and staff). I'm not sure if the 7400 employment includes all hospital staff ... I doubt it does. The actual density is probably close to 250 at the McMaster campus.

do not think any of these actions were mistakes. They were an intentional systematic destruction of crucial infrastructure for political reasons. Duplicitous intentional repetition the of FUD is only a misstep if there is an effort to correct it. When the misstep becomes a stomp and then a kick it is not an accident.

I think someone traded our LRT for a stadium, and it happened years ago.

Indeed. I should have written "mistake".

It is abundantly clear that Hamilton's LRT effort was deliberately sabotaged, in the ways that Ryan outlined in the article. It is less clear why, since wrecking our bid for $1 billion in competitive infrastructure funding is so obviously destructive to Hamilton's interests (and against multiple explicit council votes directing staff to pursue B-line LRT as the top priority).

Poor Ted McMeekin. No one seems to be aware of his existence.

He's referring to the Hamilton Mountain and Stoney Creek candidates who wrote the anti-LRT piece in the spec and tried to pretend that express buses are BRT.

Yes. They won't have to field 10's of angry anti-LRT phone calls now.

Reading the Spec today it seems that the mayor is still hopeful. He doesn't appear to be of the opinion that all is lost with regards to LRT funding. Perhaps behind the scenes city council is coming to realize that when someone offers you a billion dollars you TAKE the billion dollars...

In the grand scheme of things I'm not sure if all day GO service is really that good for Hamilton. Four trains a day to me is fine as it would get the Toronto commuters there and back. All day service implies that Hamiltonians need an umbilical link to Toronto when what we should be promoting are local business and employment opportunities that would preclude the need for such service. Also, the growth of telecommuting will be putting downward pressure on the need for people to move themselves great distances on a day to day basis.

I agree, Main Street should have been the chosen route.

It's absolutely clear to me now.

Until Hamilton tells the province it wants exactly what the Province wants, Hamilton gets nothing but vague assurances that the Province will fund the transit that Hamilton wants.

Anyone care to guess at what the Province wants for Hamilton? I think it starts with A and runs on diesel.

Comment edited by arienc on 2015-04-23 16:56:16

Thank you! Excellent response. Hamilton should be making itself a destination for jobs and a regional transit hub.

Why spend all that money to build a new station and then woefully under utilize it?

Comment edited by bvbborussia on 2015-04-23 17:57:13

I am not seeing the title text appearing. The same thing has happened to me when posting images.

I hope. It's that freking shadow mayor Chad Collins. What a freaking prick.

... just as he feigns ignorance of Rapid Ready.

At least it's clear where his political loyalties lie.

Not even his caucus colleagues. He is in cabinet, yes?

twitter.com/LauraBabcock/status/591611521177911296

Clearly it's Hamilton alone that needs to make up its mind.

Spoiler: It's a meeting.

Well that's exactly it. As of 2015 Hamilton is NOT a destination that can justify having all day GO service. If we are going to advocate for transit I think it is prudent to do it pragmatically. Don't put the cart before the horse. The station will be there and so as demand rises - and by the looks of it, it will - increase the service.

This is kind of a weird way to put it. Its not like the liberals can actually make this comparison. At the end of the day building in Mississauga, where there is a lot of political will and a well-defined, agreed-upon plan, is much lower risk than committing to hamilton, where councillors can't even agree on whether $1B in transit funding would be good for the city. A recent scandal makes it more imperative to get this right, plus it would look really bad for their Big Move plan if one of the flagship first-round projects failed because of bad politics within the city.

Yep. As much as I think that Hamilton needs this investment more, the Hurontario Line looks like a much better way to spend the money, especially for a government that needs its big post-election transit spending projects to work out well in order to prove they know how to get value for money.

This isn't rocket science.

Apparently that doesn't make it easier for you to not screw up the basic math of it.

Well, guess what: we aren't getting all-day GO train service either.

So much for Bratina's legacy.

Why is it not this? There are a large number of jobs downtown, I don't see why people wouldn't travel into the core by transit like they already do.

Here's a question all Hamiltonians must ask themselves about LRT: what's in it for the Province to fully or even partially fund rapid transit in Hamilton? If you dig deep enough (but not very) I think you'll find the answer is nil. City Council knows this already. Bratina, in all his insanity, also knew this fact to be true.

It's not going to happen because Queen's Park doesn't have to; it's as simple as that. The Liberals have managed to maintain power without the support of Hamilton voters for years and years so spending money here is essentially pointless.

Perhaps I'm being overly cynical but that's the political game, is it not?

What's in it for them? How about growing the economy of a critical piece of the golden horseshoe? What's in it for them to knowingly let us languish and be left behind by neighbouring municipalities? Stifling our growth will just increase our social and health costs. Pay now, or pay later.

Comment edited by highwater on 2015-04-25 10:55:47

Also, they may not need us now, but if the 905 continues to turn blue, they may need us in the very near future. Not only are they not doing anything to win new voters here, they are turning off the ones they already have - a mistake that could come back to haunt them.

You're right and I hope the Province sees it that way. But both your comments deal in some way with the future and we all know how politicians view that subject: Will we need these voters in the next election? I think we know that answer already.

And Municipal politics differs not in the slightest. Take a Mountain Councillor - we'll call him...Harry Blackhead. Harry's votes generally come from fiscally and perhaps socially conservative elderly types who haven't been to the city centre for years and who couldn't care less about it. Supporting LRT gets that councillor nothing but trouble.

Politics is all about getting and holding power. What little money the Province has left - either real or imagined - will be earmarked strategically. And I don't believe that Hamilton fits that definition. Cynical? Yes! Happy? Not in the slightest. I pray it doesn't work out that way.

And for the record, I'm an ardent LRT supporter. I believe so strongly in it as a people mover and as an economic tool that I would gladly donate my own dough either in increased taxes or even jammed into a brown paper bag if it came down to it - whatever moves the needle at Queen's Park.

I just can't cope with the political games any longer. Yes for 'rapid transit' funding? Great but meaningless. A 'citizens' panel'? Come on now. I'm a Fred fan but come on...

LOL, I just read that it takes a person with low intelligence to think Hamilton doesn't need LRT

I don't get it.

You definitely don't get it.

I don't know how much clearer it can be explained than it already has been. Some people are happy living in higher density, closer to amenities, with a smaller footprint. Those people tend to congregate in or near downtowns.

Others tend to want a bit more space, white picket fence, parking for two or more cars, et cetera. Those people trend toward suburbs. Urban levels of service, by the very nature of lower density, are less achievable. It's the whole point of the suburb.

Others still, tend to want a lot more space, bonfires, fields to plant, et cetera. Those people trend toward exurbs and rural. Suburban and urban levels of service, by the very nature of countryside, are less achievable. It's the whole point of the exurb/countryside.

Each is a different built form, each has different cost inputs and footprints, and each, well done, can thrive. By building the higher density efficiently, the tax base increases, the whole city has a stronger "spinal chord", and suburbs get to have their potholes filled too.

What it takes is a little bit of consensus, a little bit of view of the whole, and a little more embracing of diversity instead of dichotomous, all-or-none thinking.

The Burger Shack in Flamborough cannot sustain an LRT, or a GO station, will be a little bit farther from a fire station and police station, which is the point. That does not mean denser neighborhoods should not have it. I don't know how to ELI5 it any better.

Comment edited by mikeonthemountain on 2015-04-27 07:58:48

Many people, in any debate, seem to see their own point of view as the intelligent common sense one, and the counterpoints as the stupid foolish point of view. It seems like the best results tend to be achieved when people can come to a consensus based on evidence. Easier said than done, of course.

You just explained perfectly why large mixed geographic areas that include urban, suburban and rural are ungovernable. There is no common ground on a myriad of issues and all side resent each other. There is precious little benefit to anyone in the city of Hamilton to be one giant city.

There is no common ground on a myriad of issues and all side resent each other.

I don't think that's true. I think a few loudmouths resent each other, in my humble opinion. The media is often complicit in fomenting controversy rather than building consensus.

That said, you are absolutely correct that a certain level of local autonomy is imperative for each neighborhood to thrive according to its constituent's wishes.

no one wants to talk about the $1.2B Finch LRT?

The route is wrong. It should be from the airport hub to the new GO Station on James. with stops at Limeridge/Linc, Mohawk College, Hunter Station, and Jackson Square.

Have you taken the A-Line? It's dead. Every day it's dead. There may be 4-5 people between Rymal and Mohawk College (likely another driver or two taking a ride to their car).
Then sometimes the students load on at the college. And disembark at Jackson or King.

Essentially there is not the ridership along the A-Line route to sustain a light rail investment just yet. I would argue Mohawk Rd should get higher order transit before Upper James.

We all know the B-Line route is overcrowded at rush hours, and under-serviced late at night despite our 24-Hour economy. Put the LRT investment where the ridership exists, and the need greatest.

"The Hurontario-Main LRT will provide a crucial link between many of the region’s existing transit lines, including GO Transit’s Kitchener, Milton and Lakeshore West rail lines, Brampton Züm, and the Mississauga Transitway BRT."

What existing transit lines does Mac to Eastgate route link up? I suspect Metrolynx has a problem with the route. Stadium debate all over again and we have Fred in charge.... that's great.

Maybeso... put more busses on the B=Line. I'm just saying if you want buyin from the rest of the city and Metrolinx include the mountain airport and GO station. This is mostly seen as a Wards 1-5 billion $ gift.

If it's a $1 billion gift for Wards 1-5, what would a totally unnecessary A-Line route be considered?

This is hilarious. Are they building higher order transit on those farms? Or are they building it in developed areas? Since density is not uniform, applying services only based on the total average density is not going to work. Sorry but you're really failing basic reasoning on this one.

Let's zoom out, perhaps it will better illustrate how ridiculous your argument is. Given the extremely large land area of Ontario, why do we need 6 lane highways and GO Trains in the golden horseshoe at all? The average population density of the entire province of Ontario is so low! Based on those numbers, Toronto should be just fine with single lane country highways, right? Oh that's right, density is not distributed evenly, so more things get built where more people are. Well how about that.