Raise the Hammer

This letter is actually a good list of new music to check out...

Lots of well paid gigs in places other than a casino.

Another interesting front on this invigorating conversation. And yes, my playlist just refreshed.

It's probably bound to be asked eventually in light of last year's HECFI sweepstakes, but what should we make of Copps Coliseum/Hamilton Place/Studio Theatre, now managed by Philadelphia-based Comcast subsidiary Global Spectrum in partnership with California-based Live Nation?

**Sorry turn down a gig...

Several JUNO winners and nominees on that list. Lots of other very successful artists. I think they're doing just fine, in terms of landing gigs and building a career.

From what I know of casino venues (which is admittedly not much) it seems to me that the Hard Rock Group/Carmens Group Inc proposal would compete against Hamilton Place and Copps more than anything.

Fallsview Casino: 1,500 seats
http://www.fallsviewcasinoresort.com/entertainment/listings.aspx

Casino Rama: 5,000 seats
https://www.casinorama.com/Entertainment.html

Casino WIndsor: 5,000 seats
http://www.caesarswindsor.com/casinos/casino-windsor/casino-entertainment/index.html

You got that wright , its the Big Box stores and Malls the making smale biss go under

It's a dumb trolling question, that's why it wasn't answered. Also RTFL, "we are stating that should a downtown casino be pushed through at Council without a proper city-wide referendum we would choose to neither play at it nor promote for it."

I wouldn't play at Council either. It's sucked ever since they tore out the rotating stage.

I think we are all missing the point on what "Walmart" is trying to say. "Walmart" is actually a reference for the casino, not for us to actually discuss Walmart's and body mass index. I think the point is that with bigger business in the core, and more people coming in and enjoying downtown........other business(es) can start to thrive with the core becoming more populated and foot traffic through the area. I think its a good point and not one that should be overlooked.

Very true .. but im not talking about just Walmart i meant all (big box stores) are to blame for smale business are going under

Amen


PS "I am happy some one got the referance"

I never said other wise ... if your scared to have a Casino with all the bells and whistles it don`t matter .. if you have quality food and prises thats all you need, i eat alot on James st south and they have awasome food .. im not sure the Casino will deliver the same and i will always go to thoes .. restaurant

Oh sorry, did you want one of us to ask all 79 people that specific question for you?

If you wanna know, you ask. We'll look forward to the results of your troll poll

Seems to me that the real "topnotch" spot for entertainment is in Vegas...as I remember seeing my fav superstars there in person....at top dollar per ticket too!

So...if casinos via their entertainment division pay the best...I'd think that everyone on that list has just "bitten off their nose to spite their face!"

However what would be of more interest to me, is that someone in a year or two should check to see if any of the signer's above HAVE played at the downtown casino....

Now that'd be what I call truthful followup, eh!

Jim Rudnick

Well said Jim

Who's the troll shooting petty insults? I read it as IF IT DOES pass a proper referendum (what then)...

my bad...sorry for your armchair general anger.

like I said, good luck everyone on every side of the debate.

The only difference now ..is due to the casino influx they will be a higher amount of people who will grab a bit before or after the casino which means those places on James St will receive more customers on the weekend as well ...it truly is a win-win for all local businesses assuming they offer something of value to consumers

Re: “As musicians, promoters and music venue owners we have a very real concern that a large entertainment complex, run, in part, by a large American-owned corporation, could potentially harm local, independent music venues and promoters.”

•

“Global Spectrum manages public assembly venues in the United States, Canada, the Middle East, and Southeast Asia with an ever-increasing international presence.”

“Live Nation Entertainment is the world’s leading live entertainment and eCommerce company, comprised of four market leaders: Ticketmaster.com, Live Nation Concerts, Front Line Management Group and Live Nation Network.”

For sure it is a win-win for the local businesses and trust me if the locals hire part-time students or anyone when that Casino is open send then around there with flyers and stull im sure the Mercantis whould be ok with it after alll they understand dont they :)

there is something going on here. All these trolls sound different. Has a very bad PR company been hired to create a yes side? Are the Mercantis that desperate?

Never met the guy and don`t care to ... but a Hard Rock entertainment sounds really nice at least i can spend some money in Hamilton insted in Toronto for a bit of fun

You don't need a casino to attract well renowned musicians, Simcoe and the Norfolk County Fair is hosting Mumford and Sons in the fall. Personally I'm not a casino person but I agree that a referendum on the issue, as polarizing at it seems to be, might be in order.

Incorrect ...majority of the time I go to Fallsview ..I rent a hotel room ...go out for dinner ...stop for a coffee and than go to the casino ...go to bed ..wake up have breakfast and than travel back to Hamilton

yes, one stop shop ..sounds right to me

Oh and if your complaning about my typo .. my BlackBerry sucks .. lol

Ryan: Okay, glad you did and I am glad for your comment. I do understand what you mean about being a one stop shop. But unlike a Walmart, casino doesn't offer many services besides what a casino does..so majority of business(es) in the core wouldn't threatened by its existence other then the increased demand on wanting to go downtown ....but in the downtown core of Hamilton, employment isn't booming, so I fail to understand the correlation between your point and the driving down employment. Seems to me Hamilton downtown employment only has one way to go....and thats up

DSon`t need to go to Simco festival Hamilton has there own ever heard of Fistival of Friends AND MANY OTHERS gAGE pARK HAS BANDS EVERRY WEEKENDS IN THE SUMMER ohh sorry for the caps .. like i said erlier i hate my BlackBerry . lol

Or work in the same complex ...that why you only see one IP address ....keep checking more

No pro-gaming troll, no PR flack, no fan of a downtown casino.

Just full of questions that seem pretty reasonable to me.

Quick hypothetical question (and I won't challenge anybody's answer):

-City says no to downtown casino
-Flamborough is rejected by OLG/investors or deemed to expensive to expand/service

what then?

-Is there a Confed park or Stoney Creek mountain option?

-no casino at all?

Just wondering what people's thought are

Way to generalize a scene that you obviously know nothing about.

Has anyone proposed the size of this casino relative to the entertainment complex? Numbers I heard didn't make it sound very big.

didn't mean that comment to include you

One estimate in play was 15%.

https://twitter.com/HHHamilton/status/298808171269599233

This would make it around 75,000-115,000 sq ft depending upon how big the hypothetical complex would be.

Now here's Copps Coliseum:

• Exhibition Hall: 5,202 m2 (61,000 ft2)
• Arena Surface: 2,415 m2 ( 26,000 ft2)
• Main Concourse: 2,787 m2 ( 30,000 ft2
• Gross Exhibit Space: 10,405 m2 (117,000 ft2)

No harm/no foul.

Mercantis were saying yesterday the casino would be 15 - 20% of the complex.

Well know that you mention it I have heard of the fesitval of friends. With Lorne Liebierman working with your boys over at the convention center it will be interesting to see weather the Hamilton talent will perform at festival of friends or boycott it. Either way,I wont know i don't go to Ancaster..

What you vomit onto the screen is nothing remotely close to "typo" territory

cawnrad, evriething yoo right is wright awn bruthar!

You are one person. Your anecdote does not invalidate statistical evidence.

Great question. And,

• where are the other interested bids?
• can Global/Live Nation back out of their mgmt deal if they don't like the competition of a downtown casino venue?
• what would the capacity of the actual performance component of the casino be?
• where downtown would this be situated? (e.g. what would be demolished/displaced to make way for something this large)

Methinks someone is afraid of listening to an opposing opinion. Just because they don't agree with you doesn't make them a troll. I believe I am reading some useful opinions here in trying to help me make up my mind and to be honest, reading the likes of you calling these comments 'trolling' is insulting and makes me think perhaps the 'no' side is just wrong.

Agreed, anecdotes do not invalidate statitics ~ Statistics 101

That's pretty big!

You have to remember that the city only recieves a very small percentage of the total revenues from the casino, whether the Flamborough site or a potential downtown site. In order for the city to get a $5 million kickback, the casino has to pull in $100 million.

That means that even if only 25% of casino revenue comes from local citizens, that is still $25 million that has to be spent by our taxbase for the city to get its $5 million. There is a $20 million dollar gap between what we collectively would need to gamble away at a casino and how much the city would actually benefit from.

Thats $20 million in lost economic potential. Is that a good deal? I don't think so. If our only impetus for a downtown casino is to guarentee our 5% share of OLG revenue, I say we are better off replacing that income by raising taxes.

EDIT: also, before you say that our city's poor cannot afford higher taxes, just remember that, according to [this report] (http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/C7B7E1CE-8E34-49BC-AD3B-2A57DAFACC5B/0/Dec03EDRMS_n384322_v1_BOH12040_Health_and_Social_Impacts_of_Gambl.pdf) OLG gets 36% of its income from 4.6% percent of patrons who are problem gamblers. Can our problem gamblers afford a casino?

Comment edited by AnjoMan on 2013-02-07 18:30:13

How is it not known that Carmen's/Lieberman consortium take over management of Hamilton place and the convention centre in March?

With that deal, that sold council on the promises of a hotel, of which they hope g

Sorry to jump in before you finish your thought...but Carmen's is poised to take over the Convention Centre only. Global Spectrum/Live Nation has been approved to run Copps and Hamilton Place.

You're also not from Niagara Falls. Would you do the same if there were a Casino in Hamilton? Perhaps you might, but as Ryan has pointed out, multiple times, the general consensus of economics folks is that no, you would not. And with a Casino in the Falls, Brantford, and Toronto, you're drawing attendance from a mighty small area.

Personally, I'm with you--I couldn't go to a Casino, and stay in the Casino the whole time. Unfortunately (or, perhaps, fortunately), we're not the norm.

I'd like to think that putting a Casino downtown would result in an uptick in local restaurant business. Makes sense to me. But the reality is, it doesn't.

Care to name the family-run business? $100 says your business is not downtown, working in the entertainment industry.

Please, justify the following statement:

"The fear of big business is rather ignorant in this day and age. "

The numbers are not with you, my friend.

Also, this:

"the traffic coming from the casino can only allow for a broader market to engage in the local establishments. "

We've cited our references...please cite yours.

Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean they are trolling. When will that sink in with RTH readers?

I think it is great that all these local musicians, venues, labels have come together in solidarity.

An injury to one, is an injury to all!

A poor carpenter blames his tools. It's not the BlackBerry's fault.

I never met a musician who liked playing a casino. It's a decent paycheque but the "crowds" suck. For the most part the music is ignored since the clientèle are there to gamble, not appreciate live music. If you want to hear the most uninspired performances from almost any major tour, check out the casino gigs, if they exist.
Casinos are about gambling, not art.
Great shows result from the atmosphere and crowd at a performance, not the paycheque being derived.
A casino might bring acts to town but it likely won't bring memorable art.

I don't doubt that these are often hold-your-nose shows, but I do wonder how many people would honestly go to a casino gig expecting "memorable art".

More often than not, they are lured in by the promise of relatively intimate performance from an artist usually found in much larger rooms.

Casino Rama (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casino_Rama#Concerts) is one example of this but it's hardly alone. The Who is playing Hard Rock Las Vegas (4,000 capacity) tonight but Copps Coliseum (19,000 capacity) two weeks from now. Sarah Brightman plays Pennsylvania's Sands Bethlehem (2,500 capacity) and Hamilton's Copps in September.

I find it amusing you believe a concert would take place right there on top of the craps tables? Because the times I've gone to see a show at Fallsview, I purchase a ticket 'to the show', get there, buy my wife and I dinner at another venue, get in line at the theatre at the casino, go into a theatre that resembles Hamilton Place, with no slots or tables or dealers in sight. We sit in a comfortable chair, watch the show the afterward, we may or may not head into the casino for a few hours then we go home or retire to our hotel room which is always a different hotel then the Fallsview. Great atmosphere for every show I have ever attended at Fallsview. Keeping this debate within the realms of reality is key here folks. I continue to expect more from this site because of past experiances although I must admit my high opinion is beginning to wane because of the outright assumptions being made here dressed up to look like truths.

Comment edited by RightSaidFred on 2013-02-08 10:48:48

Sounds like a lovely night on the town. Guess what didn't need to be there fore you to enjoy your evening, a casino. Guess what the Mercanti's promised when they took over the convention centre, exactly the experience you just described (with no casino in sight).

We don't need this casino. We don't want this casino. The Mercanti's already promised to build the other stuff they want to build around this casino. There's a craps table here alright.

The one arguement against a casino I seem to hear the most is 'Hamilton is not a tourist detination like Niagara Falls or Toronto, therefore, only Hamiltonians will be the customers thus taking away spending money going to other establishments.' My opinion, and judging by the presentation by the Mercanti group the other day is that if you build it as an attraction, better than the other similar attractions, the people will come. The Mercanti's are not just offering a casino but a possible anchor for a greater entertainment district that a city of 500,000 people currently do not have on this level. And they are putting their own money into this, they are not asking for a dime from me.

I initially joined this site because of my opposition to a greedy owner who was demanding where we spend 'my money' to build him a stadium where he wanted it or he would leave town. Now we have a true Hamiltonian who wants to invest his own money in downtown to build an entertainment complex that will also hold a casino. Flamboro will not be an option folks, it just won't. The province is exiting the horse business altogether and they will take their slots with them, either to our downtown or to some other municipality. This is how I see it anyway

Comment edited by RightSaidFred on 2013-02-08 10:54:01

The Mercanti's already promised to do that. They didn't say anything about a casino when they were convincing council to let them run hecfi.

and as I stated, at times I was happy to have the casino to visit after the show when I felt like it. I can control my vices. I realize others cannot and that is a shame and as the other old argument states, should we ban all bars because of the evils of alcohol? get rid of our our strip joint because naked women will bring down civilization, etc, etc,...

well, now I am really confused again - is Mercanti's HECFI deal contingent on them opening a casino complex or are we talking about two separate deals? Remember, keeping the facts straight is important on this or any other isssue.

They say it's not contingent. Basically what they're proposing now is everything they were already promising, plus a casino. Therefore we don't need the casino.

You mean 'you don't need a casio', right? Because, even though we've elected our officials to do this for us, I for one, would love to see a referendum on the subject because I am of the belief the majority of Hamiltonians would vote 'yes' for a downtown casino. So bring it on is what I say. Check out the poll the Spec ran yesterday, over 65% in favour.

No I mean 'we' the City of Hamilton don't need one. They don't revitalize downtowns, they prey on the poor and the addicted, they suck money out of the community. There was already a survey of Hamiltonians, a real survey, not a poll on thespec.com, and a majority of Hamiltonians were opposed - and a strong majority downtown. Council already selected Waterdown, the Mercanti's are trying to lobby council to change their minds so they can get a piece of the action. I say no thankyou.

Council already 'selected Waterdown'??? Are you serious? I find it hard to believe anybody 'selected' any location since the OLG are the one's holding the cards as to where this gets built. Further, a real survey? As oposed to the imaginary one The Spec ran, right? Yeah!

Comment edited by RightSaidFred on 2013-02-08 11:05:41

I'm also confused about this convention centre issue. Carmen's has already agreed to run the existing convention centre but are now on record as saying "Hamilton needs a new convention centre." So...they're proposing to run two? Or if they're only going to run the "new" one...what happens to the existing centre?

I would definitely welcome a Casino in downtown Hamilton.

1) It would provide up to 1.200 jobs for those "low income" people living downtown to apply for.

2) I am 36 years old and live and work in Hamilton. However, when I decide to go out there is nowhere for me to go but Burlington or Toronto. So my Hamilton earned dollars get spent in someone else's city and at someone else's business. I would love to be able to put that money back into my own city. Let's face it, Hamilton doesn't have any upscale or even well maintained places for the over 30 year old group to go. Most bars are dives or border on it and Hess Village has been over-run with 19 to 25 year olds and their immature drunken fights.

3) It would be nice to have more hospitality/entertainment type places for when I want to get a second part-time weekend job. I am one of those who borders on "low-income" and once in awhile I'll work weekends at a restaurant to make extra cash for vacations, etc. It would be nice to have some options for more part time work.

4) Please don't make me pay for other people's lack of self control. I don't find that blaming gambling addiction is a good reason at all. If someone is a compulsive gambler, there are many things they can do even without a casino to satisfy that addiction. ie) scratch tickets, LottoMax/6.49, bingo, etc. Those things don't have a black list like a casino does. Friends, Family or the Gambling Addict can put themselves on that list if it concerns them that much. It's none of our business and the public is NOT responsible for what MIGHT happen to the few.

5) Why stop progress from happening. This city is not going to prosper by staying the way it is. Honestly, it is boring, dirty, downtown needs major cosmetic work, entertainment and more jobs to bring people to the core. This entertainment complex will help bring Hamiltonians to our downtown and also to bring visitors to our city. This will mean MORE money for local businesses as people who never come downtown will see what they have been missing in the surrounding businesses and experience them while they are in the core. No one will be spending every second of their time downtown in the casino. People will venture out to the surrounding bars, restaurants etc and word of mouth will spread about the other local businesses. Or is that the problem? Are all these run down places concerned that they won't be able to keep up with a new entertainment complex without putting some work and a little investment into their business. These business owners have been sitting back and letting their storefronts and interiors decline without a care because there has been no competition for so long. Maybe this will make them clean it up a little.

I agree with most of what you say, except for a few things:

1) It would provide up to 1.200 jobs for those "low income" people living downtown to apply for.

Perhaps it isn't what you meant, but downtown is not full of 1200 "low income" people living downtown. And to build on that, if poor people do live downtown, why would it default to them working at the casino? I live downtown and am not 'low income' but live here by choice.

However, when I decide to go out there is nowhere for me to go but Burlington or Toronto.

That's also false. Head to Augusta street, it's for the 21+ crowd since Hess no longer is that. Or head to any number of our upscale restaurants, or head up to the east mountain complex, Upper James near the Linc, or the Meadowlands in Ancaster if you prefer a tamer bar scene at a big-box restaurant.

While it would be wrong to cast Downtown Hamilton entirely in the negative, it does have very real and significant challenges. Some of these are socioeconomic.

According to Economic Development, in 2006 there were 8,512 residents of Downtown Hamilton (Queen/Wellington/Hunter/Cannon), and almost two-thirds of Downtown residents aged 15 and over had incomes below $20,000 per year.

http://www.investinhamilton.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/DowntownProfile.pdf

There's greater detail available in SPRC's "Profile of Hamilton's Downtown Area" (January 2012):

"Poverty rates in Hamilton's downtown area are more than twice as high as for the city. More than two in five residents live in poverty. Among children under age six, the poverty rate is 57%, and more than one in three seniors is living on an income below the poverty line.... while the downtown area represents 10% of Hamilton’s population, it has
13% of the city’s female lone parents, 16% of Hamilton’s Aboriginal population, 19% of the city’s visible minority population, 20% of the city’s population with activity limitations, 23% of the city’s population of persons living on incomes below the poverty line, 26% of the city’s recent immigrants, and 32% of the city’s renters living in unaffordable housing...
The poverty rates are about twice as high in the downtown compared to the city overall... The downtown area has a higher rate of residents visiting an emergency room in a given year. The difference between the downtown and the city overall is most pronounced for ER visits for psychiatric concerns, where the rate is more that three dimes higher in the downtown."

http://www.sprc.hamilton.on.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/2012-Report-Profile_of_Hamiltons_Downtown_Area_January.pdf

While it would be wrong to cast Downtown Hamilton entirely in the negative, it does have very real and significant challenges. Some of these are socioeconomic.

According to Economic Development, in 2006 there were 8,512 residents of Downtown Hamilton (Queen/Wellington/Hunter/Cannon), and almost two-thirds of Downtown residents aged 15 and over had incomes below $20,000 per year.

http://www.investinhamilton.ca/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/DowntownProfile.pdf

There's greater detail available in SPRC's "Profile of Hamilton's Downtown Area" (January 2012):

"Poverty rates in Hamilton's downtown area are more than twice as high as for the city. More than two in five residents live in poverty. Among children under age six, the poverty rate is 57%, and more than one in three seniors is living on an income below the poverty line.... while the downtown area represents 10% of Hamilton’s population, it has 13% of the city’s female lone parents, 16% of Hamilton’s Aboriginal population, 19% of the city’s visible minority population, 20% of the city’s population with activity limitations, 23% of the city’s population of persons living on incomes below the poverty line, 26% of the city’s recent immigrants, and 32% of the city’s renters living in unaffordable housing... The poverty rates are about twice as high in the downtown compared to the city overall... The downtown area has a higher rate of residents visiting an emergency room in a given year. The difference between the downtown and the city overall is most pronounced for ER visits for psychiatric concerns, where the rate is more than three times higher in the downtown."

http://www.sprc.hamilton.on.ca/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/2012-Report-Profile_of_Hamiltons_Downtown_Area_January.pdf

Let what I have to say here be a warning, though I myself of course have no authority over anyone. However, I say the following based on an understanding of ancient tradition that applies especially to our day, and here and now. What I have to say is the following:

Anyone who works towards this end of building a casino is nothing less of a short-sighted, evil-doer. To profit off of the suffering of individuals is nothing short of evil, and those who do so need to remember they will face their Lord and have to answer for their deeds. I advise you and myself to fear God, to be concientious of the Creator and Sustainer of us and the entire universe. Do not spread corruption on the earth. Do not make it easy for people to destroy themselves, through enabling addiction. Do not make it easy through the making of a casino for people to distract themselves from greater things, to prevent them from reaching their full potential in life.

Do not prey on people. Do not kill individuals, families, and communities by promoting this kind of so-called entertainment in which the most people suffer and only a few make 'profit'. But if only they knew, and they will soon come to know, that such 'profit' will not be of any benefit to them in front of God, but instead it will be the cause of their misery. This would be a foolish trade indeed. Please take heed before it is too late.

It is said that if it were not for the animals, God would prevent the rain from falling due to the sins of mankind. Are you and I so sure that God might not send us a storm so great as to render all of 'developments' into loss? Be mindful of the Creator and Sustainer of the earth.

May God's peace be with you.

"Live Nation is the largest concert promoter in the world. We have our own comedy touring and latin touring divisions in addition to the Live Nation branded tours we produce worldwide, which include artists like Madonna, Lady Gaga, Depeche Mode, American Idol, U2, Beyonce, Jay-Z, Rihanna and Sting to name a few. We have over a decade of experience booking casinos including Mohegan Sun, Sandia Casino and Resort, Silver Legacy Casino and Resort, to name a few."

http://www.casinovendors.com/vendor/live-nation/

Seconded:

"Global Spectrum says a casino would fundamentally damage business. #HamOnt"

https://twitter.com/EmmaatTheSpec/status/302112541318979585

"If casino is built downtown, Global Spectrum says they'll seek "contractual relief" from the subsidy reduction they promused the city"

https://twitter.com/EmmaatTheSpec/status/302113292208459777