Raise the Hammer

Oh I absolutley love this coming from David Miller! It just goes to show what Mayor Fred is up against. He is standing up for the responsible choice which is what we voted him there to do for our city. The city council is staying firm on a very important issue while the sports team owner (Bob) is using the emotions of the fans to make big bold statements to get his way...Pathetic! If he had his own money to build a stadium this would be a mute point but he doesn't and he can't tell the city how to run their city. Please understand I don't want the TiCats to leave, however Bravo Mayor Fred for standing firm on responsible leadership..other council members are just scared they will be voted out in an election year! But Fred you have my vote for the next election.

Normally team owners have massive power over city and even state/provincial governments. Hamilton council standing up to Young is a Big Deal, make no mistake about it. No wonder the old boys are going apeshit.

I have lived in this city my whole life. (44 years). With brief exceptions for University (WLU). This is the single biggest example of leadership by a municipal politician I can ever recall. I did not vote for Fred Eisenberger last election, but I will this time. He and city council represent and are responsible to all 500,000 plus of us, not just the 22000 that regularly attend TiCat games myself included.

The thought of using well over $100 million dollars of public money to build a stadium in the suburbs ( and please EM supporters don't throw out the old "its in the municipal boundary of Hamilton" arguement. If you grew up here you know the "Ear Lobe" is the burbs.) with ABSOLUTELY NO PUBLIC TRANSIT NODE, NO PLANS FOR GO TRANSIT, on a site that is only accessible by car, which will require the PAVING of over 60 acres of wheat field to accommodate over 6000 cars.....in the year 2010 is quite frankly offensive. Don't get me wrong, I am a self declared capitalist. But this makes no sense what so ever environmentally, economically and will result in traffic chaos during events should a facility be built there.

I make part of my living in Toronto. I am generally not a David Miller fan. But on this issue I agree with him. If you will indulge me. The same argument and shit fight took place when Sky Dome/ Rogers Center was being built. The Blue Jays wanted a stadium out at Downsview off the 401. City Council stood firm and said NO IT'S GOING DOWN TOWN. That decision led to a boom in the downtown of Toronto and is largely responsible for Toronto's bar/club/entertainment district today.

This city .... Hamilton, cannot afford to cave in to the whims of a sports team owner that has not demonstrated an ability to field a winning team, make his business profitable despite the sweetheart deal he receives from the city and likely will be back holding out his hand again no matter where a stadium is built unless he wakes up and decides to build his brand and field a winner rather than lay responsibility at the feet of the taxpayers of Hamilton.

I have written Bob Young and pledged my support for him and his team.... my team, in the way of a committment to purchasing season tickets should he re engage with the city and come to an agreement. That was 3 days ago. I have yet to receive a reply.

Moot! Not mute. Drives me nuts.

All other points excellent. Carry on, nothing to see here.

lmao...ya my bad..moot!

amazing...the similarities in the discussion and the proper ending location - next to the CN tracks, in both cities.

http://torontoist.com/2009/06/historicis...

My son threw a temper tantrum today. We ignored it. He stopped.

It seems the same is happening to Bob Young.

This article in the Metro News online version titled "Canadian cities slowly going green" highlights some of the eco-friendly approaches being undertaken in cities such Montreal, Vancouver, Toronto and Regina.

http://www.metronews.ca/toronto/canada/a...

Although no mention is made of Hamilton in the article, this city has a chance to move to the front of the Canadian green class in 2015 if and when it successfully redevelops the west harbour stadium site for the Pan Am Games.

I also sent an email to the Ticats (not to Bob Young specifically) pledging to purchase season tickets for the first season played at WH

What I got in return was a lecture from the account rep about how the only site that makes economic sense is Confederatioon park and that the cats will never play WH but that they could sell me some tickets to this season.

Fun stuff!

The attendance at the skydome has really dropped over the years for jays games because of their record. I can only imagine how bad attendance would be if they picked downsview off the 401 years ago. I bet it would have resulted in the lose of the blue jays and argos. This is very similar to the debate of where the skydome should be and also to a degree as to whether montreal should make molson stadium it's permanent location. There was a brief time the crowds were basically sold out and im certain at that point despite maybe not even making a profit, bob young was probably content with that. To say people wont go to ivor wynne because of location is simply not true. alot of people aren't going because of the record. That's what happens when you win 30% of your games over a 7 year period, and a 4 yr period of 15-57 (20%) ..its plain common sense. The ticats had 23 losing seasons 1973-2009 . They have won 46% of their games from 1945-2009. Only 10 seasons since 1973 have they won 50% or more of their games. I have a total of 256 wins, 394 losses from 1973-2009 for a winning percentage of 39%. The labor day game proves they could fill the stadium 29-30,000 and it shows it has nothing to do with the location and even the current stadium. I also checked current attendance and if the labor game has 29,000..the ticat average attendance will be 24,827..which is kinda of interesting if this stadium will end up 25,000 seats but anyway. You can't guarantee success no mater where a stadium would be but i personally think with a winning and entertaining team real fans would care less where the stadium is located. If it were to cost 80 millon more at the east mountain, over a 20 year period that works out to 4 million per year. Does bob young really believe the harbor location would make a difference of 4 millon per year for 20 years??...thats around 10,000 per game less for a 20 year period. Is the ticat team barely acceptable to fans, that maybe walking a few blocks for parking or maybe even having a small delay getting in and out of there enough to convince them not to go??...i Just simply can't accept that if that is their major argument..it's pathetic. A 7,000 space parking lot across from a stadium at one spot would result in much more traffic delays then parking lots spread out.

The Ticats aren't going anywhere.
They've yet to make an offer for anything in this discussion. As we found out last week, they're $15 million offer was actually a zero cent offer.

Tell Young to get over the fact that he isn't MLSE and won't be able to extort a new stadium out of the taxpayers the way they did for BMO Field.

Come back with an offer that actually shows some partnership and then we can go from there. Heck, at this point throwing in 20 bucks of his own money would be more than the last offer. For anyone still wondering why not a single councillor wanted to vote for EM or had anything good to say, this is the main reason. not a dime was offered by the Cats. That is pathetic.

HamiltonFan said "Miller can say what he wants, the TigerCats are gone if a stadium is going to WH, Miller is a nobody in this debate, an absolute Torontonian nobodyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!" Once again the question arises, just where are they going? They'll never get the subsidy they get from Hamilton anywhere else and no other city is prepared to spend public money building them a home. Moreover, just how many cities of half a million with millions more within an hour's drive do you think there are in Canada? If Millers a nobody cause he's from Toronto then by that same "logic" I would assume that Ron Foxcroft, a Burlington resident, would have the same status.

Ron Foxcroft pops onto the scene out of nowhere, just in time for the Cats to start trying to re-open the Confederation Park argument. A location which by the way is very close to a bunch of land Ron Foxcroft owns.

If all Bob is interested in is helping his friends develop the land they are speculating on - at a great cost to us - he can feel free to leave town. That is not the kind of "help" Hamilton needs.

Confederation Park is a non starter. The park is 200 acres and the Cats want 120-150 acres for a big box centre next to their stadium (because they know a stadium in any location won't make money).

I for one, have no interest in closing down Wild Waterworks for a big box centre and I'm sure most Hamiltonians would agree with me. In fact, I'll be at WW today. Perhaps I"ll do a quick survey. LOL

Correction HamiltonFan, it's an anti-corporate welfare attitude.

Quite frankly, the Ti-Cats leaving would save our town millions, as well as the constant need to bail them out.

At the end of the day it's just going to be another core Hamilton business which got bought up and shipped elsewhere.

Certainly Undustrial a WH stadium will require your tax money to help bail the team out as you say, Bob Young has been trying to tell the Mayor this for how many months now but he's not getting it. A WH stadium will be a disaster for most everyone involved.

HamiltonFan wrote:

Certainly Undustrial a WH stadium will require your tax money to help bail the team out as you say

It probably will, but at least that could potentially be offset by the new development (and subsequent tax increase) on the surrounding land.

Urban, the word potentially as you say is key. Without a perimeter road linking downtown Hamilton to the QEW and 403, I don't think too many investors will interested in a WH location on a scale large enough to justify building a stadium there.

I really think a site like Aldershot would be best suited for a stadium project. That way Hamilton can keep the FF money for other projects which would make more sense to me.

Fan, The White Star Group, the Katz Group, The Molinaro Group, McMaster Investments, and even Darko Vranich have all said that they want to develop around a WH stadium even without a perimeter road.

The perimeter road is more smoke and mirrors anyway, we don't need it at all, the site is less than 3 km from the 403 off York (or off King) and from Burlington St. Not to mention the fact that King and Main are basically highways and that game day traffic measures could be put in place to further smooth traffic.

@ UrbanRenaissance, that's all very true, also let's add Chamberlain Architectural Design and Construction team to that supportive list of people who prefer WH as well. They are experts with world-wide projects on a monumental scale. They also wrote a study supporting White Star's brown-field encapsulation method called the "Venetian Plate" very interesting concept that can be read online at whitestargroup.org. Even Storm Cunningham is supportive of WH including White Stars proposed plans. So the argument for WH seems to me the only logical place for revitalization, commercial/residential/entertainment development with high-performance sports, arts and culture appeals. Lot's of private investment opportunity here that's for sure. The Mayor of Hamilton should be applauded for staying the course. In the larger picture, he is no fool.

The studies prove WH is the way to go. The Ti-Cats have yet to prove in writing why they would lose at this location -- in fact they have no business plan for any site in Hamilton.

Has anybody read the latest from White Star site? Interesting read. They tally 17 points of discussion/questions -- I would be interested to hear what the City has to say...

"Legal Implications in the Rights to the Brand Name Hamilton “TIGER CATS” and moving of the CFL Football Franchise by the CFL and the present Caretaker from the City of Hamilton. The Issues are many and our intent is to understand… protect … and resolve…"

I listened to Mr. Youngs TSN and CHML interviews the past few days and picked up a couple interesting points. "Exploring all Options," whether it be Milton, Moncton, Burlington or who knows what. He said the process is underway and when complete the Tiger-Cats will move towards the best option. Secondly he clearly agreed that the East Mountain site has proven to be unworkable and has in effect been removed from the debate. So from a "City of Hamilton' perspective we must prove our case for the WH site in order to create the 'Best Option,' for the Tiger-Cats and the Citizens of Hamilton.......I believe Mr. Young is a sincere fellow who has the best interests of the Tiger-Cats in mind, I'm haunted by a letter he sent to RTH weeks ago. In that letter he stated that there was a Downtown location that the Tiger-Cats could find workable, but it hadn't been offered to him.....

F. Ward Cleat, before this fiasco I would have agreed that BY had the best interests of the Cats in mind, now I'm starting to think he had his own interests in mind. Only time will tell.

I am watching Bob Young stumble all over his interview with CHCH TV Live at 5:30, Tough questions but not great answers...Donna Skelly is my favorite interviewer now! Bob your entitled to your decision but I don't agree with your answers. This is about control nd money not about location and parking. I stand behind Mayor Fred and council on this one 100%!

Comment edited by HamiltonFan on 2010-08-16 18:32:28

I also sent an email to the Ticats (not to Bob Young specifically) pledging to purchase season tickets for the first season played at WH

What I got in return was a lecture from the account rep about how the only site that makes economic sense is Confederatioon park and that the cats will never play WH but that they could sell me some tickets to this season.

Fun stuff!

Don't let that discourage you! We should all be sending the Cats a POSITIVE message that we support him not just with our mouths but with our wallets. If we get hundreds of e-mails all rejected then it is tuly not about the "fan experience"

"It's not a difficult concept, Bob owns the TigerCats and he plays or doesn't play. Get it?"

Yeah, we all get it...it's Bob's ball and he can take it away any time he wants to. So? You support this behaviour? As a fan, don't you find it increasing difficult to support Bob's position without any real business case made public as to why the WH can't work?

I don't know anyone that wants the Tiger Cats to leave Hamilton, but then again, except for a few hard core fans I don't know anyone that would support giving into their demands at the expense of our Future Fund and downtown revitalization plans.

Bob young doesn't realize operating the stadium and having other events will result in little or no profit. A check around the cfl confirms this for years that even when a team manages the stadium it results in very little income after costs of running the place. Only sask is in profit territory and without a grey cup game at aother stadium..nobody is making money. Did his so called experts explain this?..has anyone...has he even studied the same situation?..course not. Copps doesnt make money either and some events from there would go to a new stadium....and would result in more losses.does he realize that..its not rocket science that a cfl team is break even at best..this isnt a secret. Anyone with half a brain can confirm this. You can only have so many events in hamilton at a stadium where enough would show up..to make it profitable..we already know this..too bad he doesn't.

I'm stunned at anyone who would support such lackluster tactics as those we're seeing from the Cats. Not a dime on the table, not a word of doubt uttered when council voted WH in Feb. See Lloyd Fergusons quote from last Tuesday for more insight on this.
No business plan, no reports, nothing at all other than threatening to leave the city if taxpayers don't cough up $150 million or more for a big box complex that would be turned over to the Cats partners.

I'll hop in line for some free money if that's all it takes these days.
Get a grip. We all love the Cats, but let's have some self respect and accountability as to how our tax money is spent. Corporate welfare isn't necessary just to show support for a team.

I'm a Bob Young fan all the way, his figures and what the city is offering make the WH untenable.

What figures exactly? Bob Young has never presented any evidence to support his position; just his vague claims that he won't be able to make money at the WH.

Comment edited by UrbanRenaissance on 2010-08-16 21:36:55

There are no figures.
Cmon Hamilton Fan you should demand better from Mr. Young. Don't pretend that you work for Carmens or Fox 40 or CHML and just spout nonsense that even you know is baseless and has yet to be proven with a single piece of evidence or study.
I'm a huge Cats fan too, but I'm the one paying for this entire project, along with you. You wouldn't just give me your next 2 paycheques because I said to. Why is Young any different?

-a West Harbour location is infinitely preferable to Ivor Wynne and would provide the Tiger-Cats with the newest and best stadium in the league with parking and access similar or superior to that of every other team.

-attendance records across the CFL show absolutely no correlation to parking or access. In fact, the stadium with some of the best attendance has NO parking WHATSOEVER.

-a Confederation Park location would do the same damage to the downtown as an east mountain location AND would deprive taxpayers of an existing public park.

-Barton Street West is FOUR lanes wide, Queen Street North is THREE, Bay Street North is FOUR, York Boulevard is SIX, King Street West is FOUR and Main Street West is FOUR.

-with appropriate traffic control there would be a minimum of THREE uninterrupted lanes of traffic coming to or leaving the West Harbour site.

-without any specifics, Bob Young claims that the West Harbour is the 10th worst site of those examined.

-Bobby Hull is the 14th worst scorer in NHL history.

Yes this whole business of figures and experts from Bob Young has the whiff of BS. He talks about them incessantly, but he has never revealed the figures or who the experts are.

I believe what I see... and he hasn't shown me anything.

Who cares what you guys think of Bob's numbers, as I say it's Bob's team. But I think we are looking at Aldershot potentially, it's a great site for the PanAms with GO access and excellent highway access and parking. And the legacy would be the TigerCats, Bob loves the site as do I and many others that don't want to see the team leave the area and would like this area to get the stadium.

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/articl...

I hope he can pay for that all by himself since Burlington's mayor already committed to spending $0 on a new stadium. Hell if he could pay for it himself, he could build it anywhere. Which is the whole point, he can't. He isn't paying a cent more than Cam Jackson has committed.

Hamiltonfan - We got your point "it's Bob's team" we know that. It's just that he can't afford it without taxpayer assistance. Sooooooo, that means that if he wants OUR money he has to be prepared to spend it in a way that benefits US not just HIM. If he's not prepared to do that, then he's free to take HIS team anywhere he likes.

You seem to have missed the fundamental point. Unlike so many other cities, Hamiltonians are prepared to build a stadium for their football team. They just want it to benefit as many people and businesses as possible and Bob Young's not prepared to share. This is a battle between people who want massive public spending on a stadium to provide "some for all of us" and people who want that spending to provide "all for some of us".

"Bobs numbers"? Yes, the most telling one is 100. As in the percentage of this development that he expecting to come from taxpayers.

0 is also very important. That's how many of his own "numbers" he's willing to invest in his own product.

HamiltonFan, check out this Spec article about an Aldershot stadium location:

"I think the Aldershot Tiger-Cat banner would look great from the (Highway) 403," [Burlington Councillor Rick] Craven quipped.

But he's the first to admit the Cats in Burlington is a non-starter, a bit of summer whimsy.

Craven, who notes neither Burlington nor Halton would be prepared to put up taxpayer funds for such a project, believes Young raises Aldershot as a negotiating ploy with Hamilton.

Emphasis added by me.

As others have said here, no other city currently has the resources to build Bob Young's dream stadium. All this huffing and puffing about moving is a marketing ploy to wring as many concessions as possible out of the city.

Comment edited by UrbanRenaissance on 2010-08-17 07:44:51

Also, check out the article in the Toronto Sun, sums it up nicely - Hmailtonfan

Bill "Wank-off" HamiltonFan? Really???

More anti-Hamilton BS... if you think that "sums things up" your user name is a misnommer.

This debate is all about money, power and control not location, access and parking! We are just taking a front seat ride down emotional street!

"I'm a TigerCat fan before a Hamilton Tigercat fan."

That's awful. The team is Hamilton, just as it was Hamilton Tigers and Hamilton Wildcats before it. You should change your username to something else, HamiltonFan, because by your own admission that's not what you are.

You're rooting for laundry.

How's this for irony? Yesterday we purchased a seasons pass for our family to Wild Waterworks for the rest of this year and next year. The money I'm saving on skipping a few Ticat games this year paid for the whole thing! Strange how the place they want to demolish for a mall and stadium just received my diverted football money. LOL

ps - this is the first time ever we've bought passes to Wild Waterworks. I guess I should be thanking the Cats, in a strange way??

What you people don't understand is that we are speaking of the Pan Am Games, not the Hamilton Games. This area is a huge megalopolis from Oshawa through to Niagara and over to Kitchener and maybe even London. Apart from having everything in Toronto, a location like Aldershot for the Games is ideally suited and people visiting from other cities in the area might take in attractions like the RBG, Wild Waterworks, Warplane Museum and restaurants in the area etc. It's not just about Hamilton. Aldershot has GO Train access now and excellent highway access and is a very central point apart as I say from putting everything in Toronto.

So yes, I agree with my comments I should change my username from HamiltonFan to something more inclusive that is reprsentative of this megalopolis I live in. Maybe Golden Horseshoe fan or Extended GTA fan or something similar. Let me think about that, it is a good point you raise with this I will admit.

What you don't understand is that Burlington doesn't want to throw $60m at a small private interest that will not provide any spin off benefits for their city, no matter how conveniently located it might be for out of towners, so any discussions to that effect are pointless.

As I posted before, I actually think that Aldershot is a better alternative than East Mountain. EM is barely any more convenient to get to than Aldershot - less so, if you figure in Go access. And Aldershot means somebody else gets to pay for that money-pit.

Of course I'd prefer the West Harbour, but if we're going talk about Aldershot as punishment for failing to give him the East Mountain site, I'd have to say "Please, please don't throw me into the briar patch!"

Won't happen anyways. Burlington has none of the romantic notions about the Tiger-Cats that we Hamiltonians do, and when you get down to the brass tacks these are all massive wastes of cash.

"Burlington has none of the romantic notions about the Tiger-Cats that we Hamiltonians do"

....and no other city will. Even if the team gets its way and ends up in Aldershot, there will not be any Hamilton fans to back them up (follow the team)! You can count on me never going to a game there...... Fans are proud of the Ti-cats because its a Hamilton thing. The minute you take Hamilton out of the figure, the fan base will disappear.

JM

I completely disagree JM but at this point I think that the money will likely be going to Toronto and York University although someone on the CFL.ca forum said that a MPP this person was in contact with said there are discussions going on behind close doors to find a solution. But I'm not confident myself that a solution will be found.

I think Senetor David Braley will solve this whole thing behind closed doors! wait and see.

It seems to me that unless the Tiger-Cats figure out a way to make the West Harbour work they're finished anyway. Their brand is worthless anywhere else, they simply can't survive with fewer fans and they can't take any of them for granted. But in a few short weeks they've managed to turn off the better portion of a generation of them, not to mention many of their existing supporters. From what I can see, there are lots of West Harbour opponents who'd still show up if that's where they played but not the other way around. They either wouldn't go on principal or they wouldn't be able to get there. The Angus Reid poll indicated that the people who generally support the West Harbour, the educated, the well-to-do and the young are precisely the people who a sports team, or any business for that matter, should be targetting. The Tiger-Cats can't survive on retired factory workers forever.

I doubt that even the most rabid of Tiger-Cat supporters would argue that this exercise has INCREASED their fan base.

All the rallies in the world won't change the fact that the ORC isn't going to give public land at the East Mountain to the City so Bob Young and Osmington can build a shopping centre. Paving Confederation Park would threaten the downtown in the same manner as the East Mountain site plus it's a park. (doh)

Expecting to make a profit in the CFL is a fond hope and it has nothing to do with parking or access. Purporting that profit hinges on one site or another, especially when no one's seen the books, is disingenuous, at best. History has shown that breaking even in the CFL is generally the best one can do. And the best way to do that is to reach out to ALL your fans, real or potential, not just the ones who can't see the woods for the cars.

The majority of the people against the west harbor are against it because bob young is and has threatend to move the team. If he was for it they wouldn't be doing much complaining. I dont think his team is finished because the CFL cant survive with just 7 teams. A Possible scenario would be is the Ottawa team gets fast tracked a year earlier (2012) and he folds the ticat team after the 2011 season. The players would be available just as a draft to Ottawa. The expansion fee for Ottawa is $7 million dollars, we could speculate they give that money to Bob Young (possibly)..or he just cuts his losses and goes home. I could be wrong but if the CFL doesn't see any interest from any other city in the next few years i don't see any other option. It is ironic that Ottawa is getting a team since they already lost them twice already and its a unknown whether it would work..but that's the CFL for you. Marc Cohon has stated Hamilton wouldn't get another team if they don't get their way...also amusing since ottawa folded twice and this is the 3rd time they have tried but anyway!. Mark Cohon wont be commissioner forever and if somebody came around and there was a proper stadium i can't see too many CFL teams turning down a cool million bucks each (which is alot in CFL terms). If the team starts winning more games the attendance will easily ave more than 25,000 this year..does he really think he can get much more than that somewhere else when the cfl average is 29,000 thousand?, It's a complete unknown to anyone and if someone felt for sure they could there would be a few cities lined up to get a team.

..i meant to say his team isn't finished unless that ottawa situation happens (they official get a team) for the 2013 season , a year earlier if forced..if thats even possible. It could possible be a win for the CFL because you would have a supply of CFL veterans and not have to wait for a decent team.