I might not be well dressed but as an employed non addicted non "lowlife" who frequents Gore Park because I enjoy it there, I'm pretty excited about this plan. I guess some people only see what they want to see.

The Downtown BIA, and subsequently the City, should be pouring all, if not most, of it's resources trying to attracting chains into Gore Park. Currently, there is no longer a full-time Cafe. Infussions was great, and was definately the life-giver of Gore Park.

Attract a Second Cup/Starbucks, maybe a Fast Food chain or two (Wendy's, Harvey's?). Definately get more business-types into the spaces above these shops, along with market-rate lofts.

Encourage more pubs & bars to open up, and encourage those that exist to promote the hell out of their awesome patios (or in the case of The Embassy; get them to open a front-facing one as well).

Gore Park has the Potential (...there's that magic word again...) to be great; but in my humble opinion, I find this plan falls very short of that. Sorry.

Gee Capitalist, I guess you never though about if you lost your health and could not walk anymore. You could be in accident or have an illness today, tomorrow or the next and be one of these people you seem to despise so much. I wonder if that happened what you opinion would be then.

Ryan "It utterly blows my mind that the International Village and Downtown BIAs are more worried about losing curbside parking than they are about gaining LRT. It's like they want to keep failing."

This is Hamilton, and Change is Scary!!

It also blows my mind as almost the entire strip of the Int'l Village & Gore Park has a VAST amount of parking directly behind their shops (along King William, and/or Main). Maybe Rapid Transit Staff needs to remind them of that?

One thing I wont miss if LRT goes down King is that stupid 'Downtown Hamilton' monstrosity @ Wellington. Although nice and artsy, I hate that it creates a 'Downtown Border'. Get rid of Downtown 'Gateways' (like the one planned at King & Queen), and concentrate on Public Art, Banners, Way-Finding Elements that subtly remind people they're Downtown Hamilton (although one should already know they're downtown due to the urban setting and historic structures).

Also, ridding that intersection of that 'Downtown' Gateway would open up space for General Purpose Lanes, as well.

LRT could be the catalyst for a Gore Park business rejuvenation; but we need to remember it's not the Immaculate Solution Gore Park needs. It needs a combination of things such as: *Better Police PRESSANCE (on foot, bike & horseback), *Constant Activities (buskers, BIA-run events/festivals such as Tree of Hope Lighting Ceremony), *Events Geared to the White-Collar Crowd (Corportate Blitzs, ie: when Corportations (such as Coca Cola, Rogers, Labatt) run marketting campaigns (Text-Contests, Torch Relays, Labatt Honey Bees)).

...all of this ONTOP of incentives to get more chains (Second Cup, etc) to locate here as well as LRT would be a great way to keep people in the Gore, feeling safe, rather than simply walking through. If King becomes the LRT route; there is no doubt Gore Park will reach it's full potential, but it wont happen on it's own. We need to pressure the City and appropriate Dept's to make the right decisions!

An outdoor public skating rink would be a valuable attraction. It could be located off King. I'm sure it would bring people out, especially because I'm having a hard time finding any public ice downtown. Maybe because I'm new in town. Any suggestions?

Really? I agree with most of your post, except where you say we should get fast food venues to move into the old buildings along gore.

First, I think more fast food is the last thing we need there. The mall is only a short walk away and has more than enough fast food. Also I think it's unlikely that any new venues would open up in gore anyways for this reason.

Second look what the current Subway across the street looks like. I'd rather have an empty building than one where the top levels are "under wraps".

Third, I think we should have more "destinations" along Gore, and fast food chains make poor destinations in my humble opinion, especially if you're trying to attract people more well to do people to live in the downtown.

I find it quite telling how it is always " ... somebody should open ... or somebody should build ..." It is so easy to spend other peoples money, either tax dollars or private capitol. If you really believe the core needs a cafe why not open one of your own? I really believe in voting with my wallet.

"I find it quite telling how it is always " ... somebody should open ... or somebody should build ...""

Yeah this is Hamilton. We don't need no stinkin' ideas! Go take your suggestions somewhere else, we're doing just fine as we are.

I've always thought an outdoor rink at city hall was a necessity but who am I? Anyway, there is one going in down at Williams C P on the Bayfront.

This project is a great first step, but we need to think bigger about redefining the role of downtown in terms of 2010 Hamilton. There is really a district that extends from LIUNA on James North to St. Joe's on James South, Bay St to the West and Wellington to the East. It's the major Creative /Financial /Government District for the entire city and it needs to be branded as such. Gore Park is the central node of all of this so its makeover is key, but it's really about a whole Gore District (Coincidentally, this was the original name of Hamilton before if became a City - check Wikipedia). Some 20,000 people a day come to work in this “district” – by far the single largest node of employment in the City. Yet, the perception that it’s some wind swept ghetto with lunatics running around still persists.

Much like the Exchange District in Winnipeg, or Distillery District in Toronto, the rebranding of an area is much more than just promotion – it can change the image of an area so that when people think “downtown”, they aren’t just thinking of Gore Park – they think of a broader connected area full of activities and reasons to come and a enjoy the district. Even the harshest skeptic can’t deny that when your think of downtown in the broader district sense - James North and South, Jackson Square, AGH, all the office towers, creative businesses, theatres, market, restaurants, clubs etc. – there are a wide variety of things to do all the time – they just aren’t going on in every place all the time, and certainly Gore Park is not the right barometer for all activity in downtown. However, all this being said, a revamp of the Gore, as a central gathering place at the cross-roads of the broader district, is an important piece of the broader puzzle.

J Morse : if one of our city blocks of surface parking was turned into an outdoor park/skating rink sort of like Nathan Philips Square it would be a huge quality boost for that downtown core; nice idea! The parking could consolidate into a multi-level parking structure, above or below ground, freeing up space for useful applications.

Robert D said: "First, I think more fast food is the last thing we need there."

I'm not the biggest fan myself, but I'm talking to friends, co-workers, fam members who avoid Downtown. They give a lot reasons, most I can argue out of (ie: 'no parking/free parking')

I'm thinking in terms of trying to attract Young, Urban, Professionals who maybe don't have enough time (or think they don't, anyway) after work to prepare/cook a meal every day. Many don't have time, or want to, eat alone in a nice sit down restaurant (ie: Mex-I-Can).

Most people my age love --LOVE-- the convenience of Fast Food. So much so, that they'll currently drive to their suburban big boxes from their homes (with kitchens) just for a quick, convenient bite to eat. So what's wrong with attracting those types of eateries if they're going to be a 'PRO' on a YUPpies's list of Pros & Cons when thinking of buying/renting in Downtown Hamilton!?

We can't just concentrate on high-end cafes, bistros & boutiques to bring Downtown back; we need DIVERSITY in business (chain along with indies, etc). People don't always have money or energy for high-end everything; So lets give every generation/genre/demographic a peice of the (Downtown Hamilton) pie!

Fast Food Chains currently missing Downtown (that you would find in Storefronts Downtown Toronto, where ppl do live): Harveys, Wendys, KFC, Burger King, Popeys, New York Fries... I'm not suggesting all be put into Gore Park, turning it into the Gore Park Food Court, but maybe 1 or 2. JS Food Court is great, but is done by 6pm. In GP, they could stay open as long as they wanted!

The needs of young professionals for prepared, take-out food can just as easily be satisfied by cafes, bistros, and delis, not to mention Denninger's and the market. The sort of people whose idea of take-out food begins and ends with multi-national fast food chains probably aren't the sort of people who would ever entertain the idea of living downtown anyway, and in any case, there are lots of fast food chains in and around the downtown. We don't need them in Gore Park as well.

I'm suggesting they [Fast Food Chains] be offered as an Alternative to Cafes, Bistros and Restaurants.

I'm not necessarily suggesting they be put in Gore Park solely, but there are a lot of empty storefronts along King St (on either side of the Gore) which would welcome these types of business.

And yes, there are a lot of fast food places now; However, if someone from a suburb --who enjoys the convenience of Fast Food-- decides to look downtown for somehwere to live (and don't say it doesn't happen; I'm a perfect example), and they see Christophers or Harvest Burger rather than Harveys or Wendys; where do you think this suburbanite is going to eat? Primarily, the Name Chains. They recognize the name and are comfortable with it.

This all has to do with bringing Big Name Brands to Downtown Hamilton, not just fast food. There are tons of Christophers or Harvest Burger-type places, but all are mostly empty. I look at the Name Chains, and they are constantly packed!

Suburbanites DO want to live Downtown; It's just not as convenient, and/or as familiar as they'd like it to be (yet)... SO ATTRACT BIG NAME CHAINS! Then attract Young Urban Professionals!

I don't think more McDonald's stores are going to attract more young professionals. off topic, but Harvest Burger beats the crap out of any fast food chain. Try it out!

I do see your point though in regard to recognizable chains being downtown. I think chains in the retail sector would be a good addition. Downtown kicks the tar out of the rest of the city in the food area. Retail shopping is horrendous though.

Comment edited by jason on 2010-01-21 12:59:42

@ Really?

"Attract a Second Cup/Starbucks, maybe a Fast Food chain or two (Wendy's, Harvey's?)."

Second Cup/Starbucks is high priced coffee. They are located in higher income areas (like Locke Street). The problem with dt is that it is disproportionatly low income so none of these coffee shops would locate there.

You want more fast food dt? We need less fast food period. Hamiltonians (especially those who are low income) are already too fat.

Capitalist: You know if you actually spent some time doing some research, you would find that many who are low income have health issues due to lack of fresh fruits and vegetables. Much of the food given out at the food banks is high in sugar, fat and salt, processed food. Is that all you can do is ridicule, put down, insult.

And I agree with Jason, Harvest burger is way better then the corporate named brand fastfood places ever.

Anyways someone mentioned about corporate events for white collar folks, I do belieive the name coke ws brought up, so I am posting this article for people to read

http://www.dominionpaper.ca/articles/311...

...and the Labatt's 'Honey Bees' were also mentioned. Classy. Just what dt needs. More T 'n A.

Highwater: Well what do you expect from young male, he wants his honey bees, not sure if that would child friendly though.

The needs of young professionals for prepared, take-out food can just as easily be satisfied by cafes, bistros, and delis, not to mention Denninger's and the market. The sort of people whose idea of take-out food begins and ends with multi-national fast food chains probably aren't the sort of people who would ever entertain the idea of living downtown anyway, and in any case, there are lots of fast food chains in and around the downtown. We don't need them in Gore Park as well.

Bam.

Further to that, the mainstay takeout food of a successful commercial district in the 2000's (think Queen West or the Annex) are independents and locally owned chains. Fast food chains have been beat at their own game and their role in today's downtown is only to take their slice of the pie. Upmarket chains such as Starbucks raise the profile of the area but only after the groundwork has been done by others.

... "I find it quite telling how it is always " ... somebody should open ... or somebody should build ..." It is so easy to spend other peoples money, either tax dollars or private capitol. If you really believe the core needs a cafe why not open one of your own? I really believe in voting with my wallet." ...

There is nothing wrong with saying 'someone should this or that' with the correct attitude. You are voicing support for an idea. That 'someone' may not be you. But that 'someone' may hear that feedback and decide there is enough demand to proceed with the investment. Thus enough people saying 'someone should' is an indicator of latent demand and encourages a potential entrepreneur to proceed.

The ice rink idea was one example. I am currently in no position to buy a tract of land and build a public square with a rink/park/whatever. However I would love to have such a place to go, thus would be a patron. Same goes for opening a restaurant/bar/cafe with a NICE patio in a NICE Gore Park. I myself am probably not the best person to open such a place since hospitality industry and business management are not my profession at this time. But if there was a nice patio in a pedestrianized Gore Park where I could eat/coffee on my way home from work, without bus exhaust blowing in my face, I would value such an establishment tremendously. It would be right on my bike route home and I have missed such a place for a while. And I don't mean fast food - I'd ride right by a fast food joint.

So I am an example of someone saying 'someone should' as an indicator of latent demand, not as a whiner :)

Comment edited by mikeonthemountain on 2010-01-21 16:27:36

There needs to be a higher-end coffee shop downtown because of its function.

Tim Hortons is not it. Tim's is not a meeting place for professionals or a place people can work in except the ones that have a different design, layout and product line (and those are very few and far between - if you can tell me which Tim Hortons in Ontario still serves the cappuccinos and lattes that were canceled at all other locations, and has power outlets for laptops the other ones are designed to exclude, you'll have some credibility in my mind.

Brand recognition will help a lot, especially in the initial stages. Some independents would be great, but I think there needs to be an anchor first.

Corporate-owned like Starbucks won't locate there (unless a lot more people than me email them)

However, a franchise is a whole different story.

But there's nothing to stop an independent person from opening a Second Cup franchise in Gore Park - they just need the startup capital to do that, and an understanding of how to build business clientele. You can bet if there was a good cafe to hold daytime meetings and work in at night, it would be busy all the time. Because to get that 2-3 hours of uninterrupted work time with an outlet for my laptop and an environment free of distraction, I have to travel to Westdale or Locke, and that's often not worth the hassle.

(Skydragon is open only till 10 and too distracting, but is great in its own way. Nothing bad on them -- but a SC or the like at the Gore would fill a different niche).

Comment edited by administrator Ryan on 2010-01-21 22:50:53

no idea why the formatting turned out so wonky there ^

thanks for the edit- I thought it was probably some Markdown thing I didn't remember - I was on my work computer and must not have noticed the keyboard was acting up.

As for the Gore.... I'm glad that performance stage remains planned, at least for now. I think there's a LOT of possibilities there.

Vancouver just opened a new streetcar route. I think this Bombardier model they're using is one of the ones we're considering for LRT:

http://www2.bombardier.com/vancouver/ind...

I'd love to see this gliding past Gore Park.

It would look even better gliding past City Hall. ;)

^ You mean the A-Line running up James past York?

Meh, there's no retail on Main. It's all offices. LRT belongs where the action is and where the shops/people are.

It's only offices along a relatively small stretch of the dt. There's lots of retail along Main between Eastgate and Mac. Main needs more help, and King will still enjoy the spillover effect without having to lose street parking and risk the deadening of a pedestrian only zone in the IV.

A Tale of Two Downtowns:

• Ryan >>> "It utterly blows my mind that the International Village and Downtown BIAs are more worried about losing curbside parking than they are about gaining LRT. It's like they want to keep failing."

• Jason :-)) "I sure don't. In fact, I'm sending this message from a mobile device I stole from the pawnshop on King St that doesn't want light rail, while lying down in Gore Park as my Doberman goes nuts on everyone."

On behalf of a few concerned property owners in the International Village, let me assure you that "we the people of Downtown" do not want to our core to fail!

In fact please treat this post as - a message in a bottle, and please do come and save us from ourselves!! This is a plea!

If anything, the process that drives the BIA system which supposedly administers the downtown core is designed to fail the people of this city.

I read this LRT rejection news story in the Spec with the same disappointment and shock that many have experienced here.

To those that look into the Downtown Core from the outside, it is important to know that the core's bipolar nature that manifests itself on so many occasions - is a result of two very distinct parallel worlds that exists down here.

One that of the property owners/tenants; and the other that of the BIA's Executive Director(s) and their Board of Director(s).

The poor and the mentally unwell are the least of our problems. It is our entitled class of Bishop Do-Gooders that many of us see as our biggest challenge.

Timur Kuran wrote "Private Truths, Public Lies: The Social Consequences of Preference Falsification" with the thesis that a significant number of people frequently lie concerning their beliefs, and that these lies have dramatic social effects. It is an essential read if one is inclined to understand the disconnect between our above two worlds.

Many active key constituents and property owners of the IV BIA are caught unaware of this preference that was put forward supposedly on their behalf by the BIA - which claims to represent the collective business preference of property owners and businesses in the core.

But then, this is no surprise at all - because many key constituents and almost all property owners at least in the IV - (of which I am personally aware of) have no voting rights to elect their BIA's Board of Directors/ Executive Director; nor have a say in formulating the 150K+ annual budget (of IV)!!

Yes, that is a fact!!

On the occasion that this was questioned at the 2008 IV - AGM, I personally was told to leave downtown as it was not good for me for simply having raised this question - in front of more then 25 attendees, two of whom were police officers! If that was not enough - hurriedly put together minutes of this meeting were circulated to all the constituents in the IV - (which not only failed to mention the above deplorable exchange at the AGM, but used language to paint me in negative light :-)

Is it a surprise our core appears on many occasions to be in the state that it is in? Is it a surprise that we have nothing to show of substance even after spending close to a million dollars over the last decade via the IV-BIA budget? A budget that is simply approved and allocated from the downtown property taxes+matched by the city - without any democratic say from those who pay the taxes in the core!!

Is it a surprise that the city actually has to now conduct an yet another expensive information input exercise in the core - after this rejection. (A copy of this was delivered to me only yesterday - while the initial rejection of the LRT was never conveyed to many!)

Our downtown problems are self-made. If James street has shown signs of regrowth it is because they finally opted to self-direct their own fate and no longer leave it in the hands of opaque groups and processes.

A case in point is this video that attempts to promote the International Village!! The choice of opening subjects who introduce what could have been the most dynamic cultural melting-pot of our city - defines the IV dilemma.

Caught between a funeral home and pawn shop/s... we do indeed have what it take to attract more residents to our core!!

(The image below is not meant to inspire anyone into positive action. It is just inserted here to feel good at moments like this.)

Markdown info:

• http://wmd-editor.com/examples/splitscreen
• http://attacklab.net/showdown/
• http://antrix.net/stuff/writr/
• http://scribes.sourceforge.net/

A case in point is this video that attempts to promote the International Village!!

"uh video...computer...pretty jazzy place."

She has no idea what the hell they do, does she?

Pitiful.

Comment edited by highwater on 2010-01-22 13:18:27

Nyurrgh, that video looks like a corporate employee training video ... from the late 1970s. A group of high school students with a camcorder and iMovie could do a better job.

When streets and neighborhoods are nurtured and not managed, as they have been in our Core - most often they result in this, this and this.

And yes, industries too are born from this approach creating local employment.

Mahesh, you're killing me. Those streets in London and Brazil are awesome. One thing I didn't see - huge parking lots and speeding cars and transport trucks. I'm guessing those two streets aren't brimming with pawn shops and money marts eh??

By the way, the fine folks at Heart of the Hammer passed on your message. LOL

Mahesh: those pictures of the trains like really neat and at least to me, it would be a lot cleaner to the environment As long as this type of transit is affordable, I think it would be great.