Raise the Hammer

The obvious rationale for the Israeli attack on Gaza has been a show of force to win popularity for the upcoming general election. However, a recent article in some papers, including the Times of India on January 5th, reveal a more gruesome reality.

British prospectors have found a substantial field of natural gas, hoilding an estimated 1.5 trillion cubic feet, off the coast of Gaza which Israel is covetting. This information is available on the internet.

Toole, where on the internet?

Ramzy, a thousand more? There hasn't even been a thousand yet.

And what would you prefer? That Israel give a more proportional response and fire rockets randomly into the most densely populated regions of the world, like Hamas is doing?

If someone was firing rockets at the Niagara Pennisula from upstate New York, I would expect the following logic and sound thinking to play out:

1) The US authorities would find the people firing the rockets and stop them.

2) If the US authorities did not successfully do that, then I would expect the Canadian authorities would denounce the action and put pressure on the US authorities to act to stop the rockets and/or arrest the people responsible.

3) If that did not happen, and the rockets were still coming into the Niagara Pennisula from Upstate New York, I would expect the Canadian Army to get involved, move to upstate New York and find the people responsible to put an end to the rockets (so I can live peacefully, make a living without a threat of a rocket coming at my house or when I go to Tim Hortons).

4) At the end of that scenario, I would hope three things would have occurred:

a) the people launching rockets would be arrested and detained.
b) if not all the people launching rockets were arrested, the remaining people who were wanting to lauch rockets, they would not do it because they did not want to be arrested/detained.
c) the US authorities would become more serious in their future efforts to deter or stop rockets being lauched into the Niagara Penninsula from upstate New York.

Toole, it doesn't seem likely that Israel is "coveting" the natural gas off the Gaza coast, since, according to an article in Haaretz, Israel gave the natural gas field to the Palestinians in 2000.

In fact, the article claims that military action in Gaza was delayed in order not to scuttle the deal between Israel and British Gas for Israel to purchase the gas.

Here is the link to that story:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/9151...

Ryan, you would also have to add in to your analogy, that the "duly-elected" Canadian government had run on a platform of denying the United States' right to exist and had staged a coup to eliminate the Canadian opposition parties.

First Hamas actually originally begain as a charitable organization rather than the militant organization it is today.

A couple of other things people need to keep in mind when discussing this issue:

This is not to armies at war, it is a major military power against a small civillian based militant organization sanction by their own people. So it is a severely unbalanced struggle.

Hamas will never have the power to eliminate Israel so no matter any rhetoric coming from some of them, this is not a reason for military aggression.

The people in Gaza have lived with much misery under the control of the Israeli government who have the ppower to improve things but refuse to do so. Hence geenerations of children are growing up under far too harsh conditions and are being left with little more than anger and frustration to feed them which only radicalizes them as adults and helps perpetuate a militant opposition.

In the end the only true way Israel will "defeat" Hamas is with kindness, not cruelty as has been done since the beginning. Palestinians need a proper place in the world not under the thumb of another and a decent chance to grow and proseper.

This cannot be done with walls, sanctions, and military strikes. It can be done with aid, open borders and equal opportunities with the rest of their neighbours. Hamas or any other militant group would swiftly lose support for their militant side if the people began to gain true freedom and opportunity.

I would like to comment about he article. It seems that you're quite bias about Israel . I look at things differently. If the Arab world or the Islamic nations has the Solidarity in a good way to prevent the people who are trying to kill innocent people. This has been happening for a long time. I came from a country just a fraction of Islam there, but they wanted to divide our small country. That's why the soldiers has been staying in the same region for several decades or probably more. What does the Jewish nation does against Arab? Talking about the division of the Arab country, it was the British occupation there. Israel is Biblically written and it should exist there. They tried give-in to Arafat almost anything that he wanted, but still he didn't agree (they wanted Bethlehem). I can't blame you to write about the matter leaning on the Palestine side, but I'm on the opposite side. I disagree with Israel of killing innocent lives there, but my take on the matter is, it is a game of the terrorists from Iraq to Afghanistan to use innocent civilians as cover-up. I would like to ask what you gonna do, if living here in Canada and U.S. constantly bombing us every single day for years? Shall we keep them doing it without retaliation? As you mention about Hamas use to be a Charity. Who are they helping? They smuggle thousands of weapon, while their people in Gaza are starving. Why do they have money to purchase weapon and don't help their people? I feel for the people in Gaza but I might as well take side to Israel because there are lot of Arab nations don't want them there. Why can't the terrorists (twisted minded people) can't live side by side with no one else besides their fellow Islam? I can't be more critical about the people but I could see that if they kill each other, Islamic nations are keeping quiet, but if they are not same religion, they have have the solidarity to say what they say against the opponents. Is there any double standard here? I'm not against Islam religion but if you are a moderate person ,why can't they see what I see. If we want to live together in peace, we should learn to assimilate and not be just one sided.

There currently is a video on globalreseach.ca, the victims. I do not care what side of fence you sit on, this is a human disaster, plain and simple.

Hamas is a terrorist organization that has bullied the legitimate Palestinian Authority out of the Strip. They constantly plot against Israel who should never have left Gaza, it seems. I don't care whether it is rhetoric or not; and I don't care if Hamas is outgunned, they are the perpetrator and must take responsibility for what is happening.

Having said that, I think the only solution for the area is a two state solution with security for all.

Truly a tragedy. It is the innocents on both sides that suffer the most. How can anyone condone random rocket attacks any more than condone the casualties inflicted by the Israeli army.

Ramzy, I find it interesting and insightful that you accept the Aljazeera version so quickly. Do you actually believe that their version is more accurate than CNN or do you just like their spin better?

No more hammers, careful how you phrase things like "Hamas will never have the power to eliminate Israel so no matter any rhetoric coming from some of them, this is not a reason for military aggression." That's exactly how Israel started 60 years ago. They started as terrorists bent on getting their own country and they did. Maybe that's why they are so scared by the terrorist attacks by the Palestinians and why they always respond so quickly and forcefully to any terrorist attacks on Israel. They remember how they did it themselves. This is most certainly armies at war. Just because one side has no uniforms does not make them civilians. Both side's armies are inflicting casualties on civilians, innocent and otherwise. Armies always have and I suspect will for a long time to come.

@Mr Meister ... I agree that the tragedy is full spectrum but you can't ignore the GROSS asymmetry between Hamas rocket attacks that came as retaliation for Israel breaking the cease fire and killed something like 10 Israelis, with Israels response that's killed over 1,000 Palestinians. That's not retaliation that's collective punishment which is a crime against humanity.

Is there a different hell for murderers of 1,000 than of 10? Is it really worse to attack with an organized army and try to to establish security than it is to randomly fire rockets into some town? Considering that stopping the rocket attacks probably would have stopped the Israelis; who is to blame? If any other country on earth allowed its peoples to fire rockets randomly at a neighboring country which has a strong military and that country retaliated would we be having this conversation. If Canada allowed its citizens to fire rockets across the border and attack and kill Americans in Detroit how long before the Americans attacked Canada? Would anybody else in the world care? Would any body blame them?

I don't feel bad about the members of Hamas who were killed they made a choice and had to live and die with it. I feel really bad about the Innocents that died those that did not belong to Hamas but paid for Hamas's actions. If you decide to live in Israel knowing you must serve in the military and you get killed while serving that tour then you made a decision and lived and died by it. So many of the victims are neither those are the ones I feel bad for, the Innocents.

Agreed Mr Meister. The IDF and Hamas alike are all terrorists.

There is a photo essay on globalresearch .ca, which compares what happened during world war 2 and what is happening there in Gaza. As far as I am concerned there is no difference, it is the same, these people have learned nothing, it is disgusting.

Mr. Monseiur, I did not say that the IDF is a terrorist organization like Hamas, just that in this scenario I believe that they have gone too far.

Grassroots, if you know a little bit about WWII maybe you have a little appreciation for the Israeli point of view. Disgusting? Absolutely! Hitler and the Nazis have been replaced Hamas and others. Do you actually believe anything you read at globalresearch.ca? So much of what is posted is laughable. I'm not sure about the photo essay I didn't find it.

"Mr. Monseiur, I did not say that the IDF is a terrorist organization like Hamas, just that in this scenario I believe that they have gone too far."

Then you, sir, are a hypocrite of the worst order. The IDF just blasted over a thousand people most of them civilians (children no less) to bloody charred pieces by indiscriminately shelling a dense urban area, blowing up schools, hospitals, UN relief offices, power generators, water treatment plants etc etc etc while maintaining a strict blockade on supplies getting in (or information getting out). They rounded people up by the dozens and crammed them into houses that they then shelled with explosives (actually like what they're doing with Gaza as a whole). They used white phosphorus, depleted uranium and "Dense Inert Metal Explosives" (DIME) an experimental explosive that shreds people in close range and gives horrible cancers to people farther away (thanks to the heavy metal tungsten alloys). The people left alive to pick up the bodies and clear away the rubble have no food, no water, no power, no voice, no rights, no freedom. Israel in horrible spite of its own sad history is visiting a Holocaust of terror and destruction on the Palestinian people. When people like you try to spin it as self defence when the Palestinian people aren't even free that makes me feel sick to my stomach. If you were forced off your land and herded into a concentration camp wouldn't you fight back? Why do the Palestinians deserve any less?

Holocaust, then and now:

waronyou.com/topics/germany-1940-israel-2009-shocking-pictures/

Warning, distrurbing photos

Mr Meister: You are set in your ways and nothing will change that. As a person, well that does not say much for you, if you cannot honestly look at things.

I am sure if you looked hard enough, you would of found the photo essay, I think that you are afraid to look at it.

Mr Monsieur, like I said I believe the IDF went to far. However they are still not a terrorist organization. They overreacted to a terrorist attack if you cannot see the difference then you have a problem. Do you have any sense of history? The Arabs and Palestinians rejected the UN plan in 1949 and have been trying to annihilate the jews since. The surrounding nations have repeatedly attacked Israel and continue to do so. Israel has always bested the Arabs and lately the attacks are rockets randomly fired across the border or suicide bombers. The IDF has always retaliated quickly and violently. However the IDF to the best of my knowledge never sent suicide bombers to a Palestinian cafe. Mostly they are actually aiming for a military target but they don't care about collateral damage as much as we would like partly because the Palestinian terrorists will hide in apartment buildings with many innocents around them. Maybe a couple more 9/11 type attacks and we won't care as much either. The main goal of Israel is not to obliterate any other state or peoples but Hamas exists for that reason. I feel really bad for all the innocents on both sides. Just because some of the casualties are children sadly does not make them innocent. The Palestinians have used children as suicide bombers and have many times given them guns. Isn't that disgusting!

A thousand words, Thank you for the link. The irony is almost over powering, somebody spent a lot of time matching up pictures. Unfortunately I have seen pictures much worse from WWII and not surprisingly those were not shown.

Grassroots are the way forward, I guess I am mostly set in my ways. That does not mean I cannot look at things honestly, it means I tend to take things in context something I believe you are not doing. Over the years I have learned that people rarely change. I am not Jewish but I have to admire them for their resilience if nothing else. I have read a few things about their history (my main area of interest is WWII). They have been a persecuted people for hundreds of years all over the world (Canada and the USA specifically banned them from immigrating until the late 1940's) yet they are stronger now then ever. In my mind I will give them the benefit of the doubt many times, however like I said before in this case I believe they went too far.

I get the sense from you that you believe Israel and the IDF to be the real villains in this whole scenario am I correct?

Mr Meister: This issue is very complex but I will try to air my feelings.

I do not just look at one source, I always try to look at many things to get a perspective. I watched a video of Sir Gerald Kaufmann speaking to the British government and his words were strong and clear. This video is on globalresearch.ca, I think you should watch it.

There was an article in the Toronto Star, where the writer, who is Jewish was actually, I am going to say condemning those other Jewish voices that were speaking out against the violence, actually it was a sit in. So in my mind I think what right does the writer have to "control" the thoughts and feelings of another individual? Do you think it is right that a few have the right to oppress the voices of others? I mean we are all individuals, so I am asking you if I speak out against violence, then to have another group suppress my voice, do you think that is fair or reasonable?

What I think is happening is that a few, powerful people, want to set their agenda, they use propaganda, they even condemn their own kind. I watched a video where a gentleman in Israel, who was a retired miltary person, who was speaking out against the violence. The interviewer asked him the question, do you realize that your speaking out could get him labelled as a traitor. The gentleman replied yes, he knew but his views and feelings at the human loss were stronger then if he said nothing at all.

To be honest with you, these few, the power mongers, do not care who is in their way, it could you or me, anybody. People have to look through the propaganda, at really look at the issues.

Am I wrong for feeling the way I do? Think of it this way, in the main streasm media, there is a war on everything, war on drugs, war on the poor, war on the mentality disabled, war on those who have addictions, war, war, war. It never used to be these way. I do not watch TV anymore because of the messages that it sends.

I hate war, I hate violence, I hate weapons of mass destruction, I stand for peace.

Grassroots are the way forward, you are certainly entitled to your feelings and opinions.
I'm really not sure what you are trying to say. I am in no way condoning what the IDF has done in Gaza, I have stated several times that I believe they have gone to far. On the other hand I understand some of the Israeli attitude and why they react the way they do. I am not a big fan of violence but I also understand that sometimes there is no other reasonable choice.

"They overreacted to a terrorist attack if you cannot see the difference then you have a problem."

Nope Israel and Hamas had a cease fire for a couple of months then the IDF marched into Gaza and killed 6 Hamas militiamen breaking the cease fire. Hamas retaliated with rocket attacks to Israel breaking the ceasefire. Why is Israel killing six Palestinians in spite of a cease fire NOT a terrorist attack but Hamas retaliating IS a terrorist attack? You, sir, are a hypocrite.

"The Arabs and Palestinians rejected the UN plan in 1949 and have been trying to annihilate the jews since."

Nope The Palestinians AND the Zionists both rejected the UN plan and the Zionists went in by them selves and took over land already held by the Palestinians using terror to force them out of there homes. The Zionists massacred whole villages, raped, pillaged there way through to force the Palestinians out and make room for themselves in a land the Palestinians had lived in for hundreds of years.

Before the Zionists did that, Jews lived peacefully in Arab and Muslim countries (but not in European countries!). After that, the Arabs turned against the Jews for supporting the Zionist terrorists. Since then Israel has expanded it's territory through invasion, massacre, occupation, illegal settlements, bombing civilians, demolishing homes and killing 100 Palestinians for every Israeli citizen that the Palestinians killed resisting there occupation.

Maybe your the one who needs to learn some history. Maybe then you wouldn't be such a hypocrite having one rule for the Palestinians and a different rule for the Israelis.

Now you are just trying to rewrite history.

all they understand is violence so just turn gaza into a parking lot and be dun with them

@solutions

Lookout everyone, it's a Internet Tough Guy.

@Mr Meister

Think YOU are the one that wants to rewrite history, even Israelis are open and honest about there own history, but you have swallowed the fairy tale told to Americans about Israel and the Palestinians hook line and sinker. So sad that you still believe there should be two rules, one for Israel and one for Palestine when Israel is behind the crimes against humanity which created all this hatred. Think of those Palestinian kids who's parents were blown to bits, they're going to grow up hating Israel and hating Israelis and can you blame them? Hatred begets hatred and violence begets violence. Israel needs to stop smashing Palestine it's that simple, until Israel stops and makes Palestinians full citizens with human rights there will never be peace there will never be justice. Stop making excuses for them.

Look at my posts I'm quit familiar with Israel's history. But I'm also familiar with the Palestinians. You refuse to look at what has happened with any degree of honesty instead you are more interested in mouthing the party line. Why do the Palestinian thugs fire from crowded spaces using their own countrymen, women and children as human shields? Them when the IDF fires on them, they and their tunnel visioned fanatics are up in arms about the IDF brutality. When the IDF made it clear that they were going to attack until the rocket attacks stopped why did the rockets keep coming were they daring the Israilis to kill more people. If the terrorists don't care about their own why should the enemy? It is not the official policy of Israel to exterminate the Palestinians but it is the official policy of Hamas to destroy Israel. Why do the other Islamist countries in that region of the world not take in the Palestinians? Do they the the true nature of the people we are talking about? absolutely they do. There is a reason nobody wants to deal with the Palestinians. Israel has a long and checkered past but the Palestinians have an all that and more, they have a horrible present.

"Look at my posts I'm quit familiar with Israel's history." More like you're familiar with the propaganda Israel tells the world about what it's doing.

"You refuse to look at what has happened with any degree of honesty instead you are more interested in mouthing the party line." Ha! What party line? I'm not a Palestinian or an Arab, I'm just a bystander who can't sit still and stay silent in the face of oppression covered by lies.

"Why do the Palestinian thugs fire from crowded spaces using their own countrymen, women and children as human shields?" Maybe because they have no where else to go. Have you seen Gaza City, it's one of the densest cities in the world. Israel forced Hamas into Gaza and blockades it, what do you expect Hamas to do? Sit there and take it? Okay you probably DO expect them to do that. A bigger question is, why does Israel use Palestinian children as human shields? The Israeli Supreme Court even found that this practice by the IDF is illegal independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israeli-use-of-human-shields-is-judged-illegal-509907.html except Israel is still doing it according to Amnesty International amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/gaza-civilians-endangered-military-tactics-both-sides-20090108 FOR SHAME Israeli soldiers hiding in houses with Palestinian children and using them "as a military base and sniper position" isn't this supposedly why Israel said they were allowed to bomb a UN relief building?

Your one sidedness is just gross. By your reckoning the IDF are terrorists but you give them pass after pass after pass, they just "over did it" but aren't actually terrorists, let me ask you, just what would they have to do for you to decide they ARE terrorists?

"When the IDF made it clear that they were going to attack until the rocket attacks stopped why did the rockets keep coming were they daring the Israilis to kill more people." Why did Israel violate the cease fire with Hamas after refusing to lift the blockade?

"If the terrorists don't care about their own why should the enemy?" Barf, I thought Israel was "better" than the terrorists, now they're no better than the terrorists but they're still not terrorists?

"It is not the official policy of Israel to exterminate the Palestinians" No it's the official policy of Israel to just herd them into a box and suffocate them and punish them until they stop complaining about having their homes stolen from them.

"Why do the other Islamist countries in that region of the world not take in the Palestinians?" That's not the point if America came in and took your home would you want Europe to take you in or would you want you're home back?

"Do they the the true nature of the people we are talking about?" How come the Arabs living in Israel aren't fighting? It's because they're treated like humans can't you see the difference here? If Israel treated the Palestinians like humans they would act like humans not like caged animals trying to get free.

"There is a reason nobody wants to deal with the Palestinians." yeah it's called America and billions in dollars of military aid to Israel.

I have made anti Israeli statements because some of the things they have done need to be condemned. You refuse to look at this whole situation with any degree of openness or honesty instead you want to blame it all on Israel. Any reasonable sane person can see that there is more then enough blame to go around. I see no further need to post on this topic until you come to your senses and get a grip on reality and start to look at what has really happened instead of what happened in your little fantasy world.

Mr Meister: There is a new video on globalresearch.org, Gaza 2009: We will never forget.

Watch this.

I'm general to the left on most issues but at the same time I have no respect for stupidity which seems to dominate these events.
Not recognizing the Hamas election victory and working with them -- stupid
the idea of proportionate response - stupid
firing rockets haphazardly without strategic purpose into Israel - stupid.