Raise the Hammer

"And face it, it means the Tiger-Cats are staying, and we don't have to pay for them to to do so with Future Fund or taxes down the road."

So...Hamilton wouldn't have to pay for an Aldershot Stadium? So then is Burlington coming up with $50 million in city tax dollars, plus whatever funding gap might exist to take the stadium up to the 25,000 seats the ticats say they need?

After the last Burlington council shot down this idea, I find it very hard to believe the current Burlington council would be on board.

I'm interested to hear from Burlington themselves on the issue, not from the ti-cats.

Jeff,

I highly doubt there will be any name change for the team. I'd bet money that they remain 'The Hamilton Tiger Cats'. The move will only reinforce Burlington's status as a suburb.

On the whole I am staring to agree with your article.

I think mr. Mitchel is a little out of touch if he thinks we fans will hop in our cars and drive to Burlington to see OUR Ti-Cats. If 80% of us drive then why o why is the west harbor so bad?? So much parking closer to that spot than where I park now to get to ivor wynne. We, the fans, have been bamboozled by the cats and now have to accept they really don't care about Hamilton or the TRUE fans. It will not work in Burlington, just like confederation park would have failed once those October/November winds blow and people stay away.

Instead of looking at the foolish, mega million, suburban stadiums in the states. Why not look at the rest of the world where walking from a few kilometers is the norm. Or inner city transit is close by.??

Poor bob is getting some bad advice.

Maybe we should get Dalton to amalgamate aldershot with us then we'll still have to pay for it, lol.

It may be a win win situation for the city of Hamilton. We keep the team, and according to Scott Mitchell, they will still be called the Hamilton Tiger Cats. We save the future fund money for other purposes. We still participate as a host for Pan Am events.

But there are still many unanswered questions about how this is all going to transpire. According to an article posted on the Spectator website tonight, http://www.thespec.com/news/local/articl... Burlington will get $100 million for the stadium from Hostco while investing only $10 million of their own money. Why is it that the city of Hamilton would only get $56 million from Hostco with an investment of $45 million.

Something just doesn't seem right about this. It sounds to me like the city of Hamilton is getting screwed again. As usual it's one set of rules for the city of Hamilton and a completely different set for everyone else. Someone needs to investigate this discrepency and find out why there is such a huge difference in funding between what this city would get and what will be given to Burlington.

This move would irrevocably split the Tiger-Cat community.

I can't see any new fans making up the difference. This is high risk.

You can see the backlash that has already started by various comments on various websites.

Time to consider giving up HAMILTON's team so it can stay where it rightfully belongs. What a betrayal this would be.

"Caretaker" indeed!

By George I agree, lol. Seriously though, who from Burlington is going to make up the loss of HAMILTON fans??

Especially for a team called "Hamilton".

@MrJanitor - The Ti-Cats will stay Hamiltonian, but that Burlington Hwy/GO address for a venue will service Halton with hundreds of events each year-- Not just sports, everything from concerts to car shows... This will even be good for Oakville and Milton too.

@Robert D - Well, no but, essentially yes; the $ has changed. As @bigguy1231 points out, The Spec reports the new numbers as:

$140-million, 22,000-seat Aldershot stadium

• $100 million from federal and provincial governments through Hostco

• $30 million from private sector

• Donation of land from Paletta International

• $10-million funding gap

And that gap is about naming-rights and two concession deals away from closed.

@bigguy1231 - Oh, I know, eh? The gov loves Halton the way it loved Peel when I was a kid. And that worked out so well...

Comment edited by wentworthst on 2010-12-29 01:29:55

Interesting how Foxcroft was at the meeting eh. To believe that this whole Ti-Cat centric stdium stuff wasn't driven by him and Braley is naive. Sucks we lost track and field though. Lets develop the veldrome into an amateur sports facility like PanAm is meant to be. Not a milliionaires club house

I hope this works out and we can get some much needed focus on the velodrome at the west harbour. it has gobs of potential if done right, and now we'll have the money to do it right. Seeing the sudden interest in private business people for the Aldershot site shows quite clearly that the Cats already decided long ago that they weren't going to stay in Hamilton proper.
Many cities have their sports team in a close suburb (although many have moved back to their downtowns in the past decade).
The Cats must have thought that there was a big enough appetite among Hamiltonians to pay close to 100% of the cost of this project simply to keep the team here. They were way wrong.
I personally won't sit in an hour long traffic jam with 22,000 other people all trying to get off on the same exit and park in the only parking lot, but many people will. This seems to be the best scenario for the Cats. They'll need to work harder than they realize though to grab new customers to replace the ones they have lost through this process. Putting a great team on the field must be priority number 1 if they expect turned off fans to come back to their team.

10 years from now once the novelty of a new stadium wears off and people grumble about "that stupid stadium and it's traffic jams" and Burlington is forced to come up with subsidies every year we'll look back on this and be glad that they landed in Aldershot. We can still watch our team without having to subsidize them for the rest of our lives.

And within 2-3 decades there will be a move to either take the team to a brand new city, or put them in downtown Hamilton....40 years later than most other North American sports teams, but that's what happens with bad partners, bad advice and old thinking among the team management.

Despite the highway visibility, this seems like a sub-optimal site as far as traffic access goes. King Road is one lane northbound, one lane southbound. North Service is one lane eastbound, one lane westbound. Plains has one inbound turning lane in each direction. That might be viable for a 9,000-seat hockey arena, but I suspect it might get clogged by the to-and-fro for a 22,000-seat stadium.

They keep talking about how close it is to the Go station, but a 2.5 km walk down North Service Road doesn't sound fun to me...

It's a longer walk from the GO Station to the stadium site than it is to walk from York Blvd/403 ramp to Barton and Caroline. Nobody, I mean, NOBOOOOOODY is going to make that walk. Ever been to a hockey game in Kanata?? Get ready for legendary traffic jams here, only worse because the stadium is bigger than a hockey arena and the 403 is a busier highway.
Like I said, 10 years from now people will be screaming bloody murder about the 403 mess this thing creates.

You'll all notice in today's article that Palaetta (sp?) talks about the need for future expansion and hopes that Burlington residents wouldn't be on the hook for that. LOL Who's going to pay for it then? It sounds like the smaller 22,000 stadium is a way for them to get it built and then they'll go cap in hand to Halton taxpayers to pony up for expansion of Hamilton's stadium.

By the way, another option that isn't getting much play is that Hamilton could still request a 6,000 seat soccer stadium at the WH and we can built it with future expansion in mind in case a CFL team or soccer team from a larger league (MLS) comes to set up shop.
We are still in the drivers seat and I hope council will think about what our city may need in terms of new stadiums in the years to come, and not just the Cats.

I give it 5 years before the team is re-branded as the Ontario somethingorothers, like how Vancouver and Regina have provincially-named teams.

$100 million from Hostco to Burlington, but less if the stadium were being built in Hamilton?

I agree, something seems not quite right here...

I'd want that in black and white from the feds/province if I were Burlington, especially since both said they could not come up with any more money for Hamilton.

@told you so

We're not rejoicing at losing the stadium.

We're rejoicing that we don't have to pay for a stadium whose location is no worse than the East Mountain site that Young preferred.

Obviously we'd love to have the original plan back - the West Harbour, or one of Mayor Bratina's truly-downtown sites he had in mind.

But if a stadium is going to be located in the suburbs a 20-minute drive away, inaccessible by public transit... it may as well be on somebody else's dime.

Comment edited by Pxtl on 2010-12-29 09:05:35

like how Vancouver and Regina have provincially-named teams.

A little perspective generated, a little time doing some research would show why these two situations unfolded. As Ontario will soon enough have three CFL teams, I hardly think there's any logic in assuming that a provincially-monikered Ti-Cats will result...no matter the time-frame.

Not really wanting to bring in US references...but they're conveniently strong ones...the Buffalo Bills play in Orchard Park, the New York Jets and Giants play in East Rutherford, NJ.

So I think this 'But Aldershot ain't Hamilton!' bit of the discussion is moot. (This coming from a Hamiltonian who still believes in the relevancy of Stoney Creek, Fruitland and Winona. LOL)

Hostco agreed to fund 56% of the construction cost of a 15,000 seat Pan Am stadium in Hamilton. Now comes yesterday's media report that Hostco is expected to fund 71% of the construction cost of a 22,000 seat Pan Am stadium in Burlington. Are these numbers for real? Or is it just more "fuzzy financing" spin from Bob Young and Scott Mitchell? Hostco CEO Ian Troop needs to set the record straight immediately.

Comment edited by RenaissanceWatcher on 2010-12-29 09:20:21

Really? I am shaking my head in disbelief. Didn't the Ticats, of their own volition, meet with the City of Burlington without even contacting HostCo? Correct me if I am wrong, but HostCo was looking at Mississauga and Markham as alternate locations for a new soccer stadium. Hostco was not created to ensure that the best interests of the Ticats are being served. There mandate is to run the Pan Am games. Period. from the Spec article: "Troop said the Burlington development was news to him and he advised caution in jumping to conclusions about it." http://www.thespec.com/news/local/articl...

There's also the curiosity of matching federal/provincial funds going to what is at present a private development concern. What sort of precedents are there for that kind of platinum opt-in?

@mystoneycreek

Illuminate me then. The wikipedia pages of those teams describe nothing but the same thing Bob Young is trying to do - they wanted to make sure their teams had wider appeal than the urban area that hosted them. Bob Young wants people to drive from Oakville and Brantford and St. Catherines to see the Ti-cats. He's made this clear - he wants it to have a regional fanbase, and the Hamilton name is going to be a massive impediment on that plan.

I can't find any justification other than the same for the B.C. Lions or the Sask. Roughriders, despite their locations in the capitals of their provinces. Am I missing something?

@told you so

What? Of course it's self-interest. If the city is going to dump 8 figures into a stadium, then the city should reap some benefit.

I honestly can't even begin to grasp the kind of thinking that would lead to your post.

Illuminate me then.

Sure.

Maybe it's as simple as pointing out the realities of population density for both BC and Saskatchewan for those franchises when they chose their names. And compare them with Ontario, now. Regional names are chosen for good reasons (and in each situation, what feed those reasons tend to vary according to the specifics of the sport, the history of the area, etc.)

He's made this clear - he wants it to have a regional fanbase, and the Hamilton name is going to be a massive impediment on that plan.

This is plain, unadulterated poppycock. It's known as being disingenuous with the truth. Or, 'This is how I see things, and it's the basis of how I want to move forward, na-na-na-boo-boo.' Does Mr. Young actually believe that people are that naïve, that unaware, that unsophisticated as to tie interest in a thriving, exciting sports team to a name?!? Especially with a long-established team such as the Hamilton Ti-Cats?

Moreover, do you...?

Yup.

Yup.

Congratulations; you compelled me to put on my hardly-ever-worn Cap of Restraint.

I will say this, though: if what you're claiming Mr. Young to have said is accurate, then I'd say we have one hell of a willful person on our hands. He's beginning to remind me of Harold Ballard.

Which is fine. It's his right to see things his way, have his own perceptions about what his team needs.

Just as it's the right of all free-thinking people to use their grey matter and discern the truth from the twaddle.

Which is why what saddens me the most in all this isn't 'how Council has behaved' or 'how Bob Young et al have behaved', it's how people continue to glom onto what amounts to conventional business strategy and wrangling, receiving it as righteous gospel, and forming opinions based on it...as fueled by fear or ignorance...or belligerence.

Yup; there's a good theatrical production in here, somewhere...

Yes you certainly have illustrated your interests don't extend beyond downtown. Yours and those like yours are selfish attitudes that benefit nobody

Kettle, meet pot: "Yes, you certainly have illustrated your interests don't extend to anywhere near where 'downtown' begins. Yours and those like yours are selfish attitudes that benefit nobody. Further, such myopic thinking really does nothing to further healthy dialogue and in fact, makes things worse."

Oops, sorry; I did some editing. Mea culpa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5FfJ89rG...

I really think not having to use the FF money will allow the city to take a long term approach to the Rheem site and adjacent brownfield and see what is best.

Good article Jeff. In a perfect world there would be no need to have to make difficult decisions on the part of anyone but unfortunately this world isn't perfect, stating the obvious.

@mystoneycreek

Don't get me wrong - I'm not judging Bob Young for looking out for his interests.

Young is losing tons of money... and honestly, it's not the team's performance at fault. They are't the best in the CFL, but it's not like they're some continual embarrassment like the Leafs. They make modest successes with a modest budget.

Young, fundamentally, needs to do something drastic to recoup some of his investment. The fact is that Hamilton is a boat-anchor for him, not an asset. Hamiltonians don't have much money, and the city has a terrible image problem that's keeping outsiders from visiting our city. I'm sure if it were up to him, he'd rather be owning the Mississauga Tiger-Cats. Or the Waterloo Tiger-Cats.

This move to Aldershot is his big break - he finally has something he can sell to the rest of the Golden Horseshoe. And he needs them, so he can raise ticket prices... he needs to hold onto his existing fans for just long enough to bridge the gap to a larger, more affluent fanbase.

These aren't moral judgments - this is a business. The man needs to make money, and he's not doing it by staying put.

I suppose I was being hyperbolic to say that he will change the name in 5 years, but I'm betting he's considering it, weighing his options on how to avoid alienating existing fans. Ontario Tiger-Cats, maybe?

I care about downtown but actually have a different idea of whats good for it. IMO a stadium there would be a disaster for the downtown even if its successful for the Tigercats

pxtl -

bang on. 100% correct. over and out.

for anyone who cares, this stadium site is a 7 minute shorter drive to King and James than Confederation Park. Both of those sites are closer to downtown Burlington than Hamilton. And let's be honest, transit access to the Aldershot location will be marginally better than Conf Park. At least there are HSR and BT routes that stop at King and Plains. Who knows, maybe someday we'll put all these lanes on York to good use have an LRT line that runs from downtown Hamilton to downtown Burlington.

The GO/VIA stuff is a smokescreen though. Nobody will walk 2.6km beside a highway to get to a stadium from a train station. Most people won't walk 2.6km period.

And let's also be honest that the entire west end of our region, whether CP Railyard, WH or 403/King Rd is a much nicer view of the city and surrounding greenery than Conf Park staring at the smokestacks across the QEW.

The more I think about this idea, the more I like it. NYC hasn't suffered an image problem due to their two NFL teams playing in Jersey. Nevermind just outside a city's boundary, their teams play in a different state! LOL

Also, while we're at it

Will this work for Aldershot? I think so, as isn't really anywhere now. Hamilton, Burlington and GO transit all stop near this location all-day everyday and there is nothing there but a delay.

QFT. Aldershot Go Station seems to exist solely to flip the bird to Hamiltonians with a "You take the bus from here, Hamiltonian scum" break.

Yeah, something is real fishy with these numbers. HostCo was only funding 56% (through 1/2 feds and 1/2 province) of the capital for the 15,000 seat stadium at West Harbour with the other 44% coming from Hamilton. A 15,000 seat stadium has a capital cost of about $100M. Therefore, Burlington would have to foot a $44M bill just for the 15,000 seat stadium. If there is a 22,000 seat stadium, maybe, and I stress maybe, the extra $30M from Paletta would cover the increase in seats to 22,000 (but I doubt $30M covers much in the way of luxury boxes). Who knows how much extra money would be needed for road and sewer infrastructure improvements. So Burlington (maybe with some Halton funding) would at least need to come up with $44M plus infrastructure money. Maybe with naming rights or parking revenue/ticket surcharge they could come up with another $10M but not $44M!!!!! If the feds and the province then start kicking in more money that would be a huge injustice to Hamilton. With the feds not paying for Quebec's new arena or Winnipeg's stadium, I can't see them kicking in much. Dalton can't afford to screw Hamilton too much with an election coming up either or whatever chances he had for seats will all go NDP.

"Aldershot Go Station seems to exist solely to flip the bird to Hamiltonians with a "You take the bus from here, Hamiltonian scum"

I so agree. Whether it was a daily 10+ min bus diversion for no riders on/off, or having to go out to Burlington with my kids just to try a GO Train to Niagara Falls last summer...Toronto, maybe, but Niagara?! Absurd, when we have nothing but excess rail lying around this bay. Transit-ghettoized by the province for decades.

I smile when people say Aldershot is a problem by road and transit. Aldershot is the most well-serviced middle-of-freakin-nowhere I've ever seen. Freq. local buses, regular commuter trains and nothing but parking-potential, meanwhile almost anyone using the spot likely feels put-out diverting to nowhere in the 1st place.

It's safe to assume new roads/access to service the property, its too early to guess layout on that size dev and trust me on at least this count-- transit won't be a problem! We have been mindlessly & painfully tending that spot for years...

Okay, so the stadium in Hamilton idea is dead. Ticat fans get to keep their team nearby and progressive Hamiltonians get to keep the FF money and avoid the risk to taxpayers. The question now is what do you do with the West Harbour and how do you spend the future fund money?

http://twitter.com/#!/MariannMeedWard

Marianne Meed Ward (Burlington's Ward 2 councillor) is ripping this thing to shreds on twitter.

More reason to hate getting News from the Internet's bathroom wall...

IMHO, Ms. Meed is missing that the venue has far more use than Ti-Cats ball, or even just "sports".

I think we will see the gov. spring to kick in at least twice as much, now that its for prized affluent Oakville/Burlington voters. It will have to look good for Oakville to even acknowledge it, thus the sudden change from "Well, if Hamilton wants it..." $ attitude.

From her twitter feed:

http://www.thespec.com/opinion/columns/a...

Sounds like the article above.

And Allan Taylor appears to be "told you so".

Smart fellow that Allan Taylor

By Allan Taylor you mean Turbo, the RTH troll? Allan Taylor has been trolling on The Spec since disappearing from here.

Hi Allan! (Turbo)

Hi Allan! (Turbo)

AKT

just wait till the environmental / plant / water course data comes out about that chunk of land. Three water ways, and some carolinan species. NEC/RBG is going find this interesting....

Comment edited by beaslyfireworkstechnican on 2010-12-29 19:39:57

@ Nords: "Burlington (maybe with some Halton funding) would at least need to come up with $44M plus infrastructure money"

Halton nixed the prospect of stadium funding four months ago.

From the Toronto Star:

Meanwhile, the notion the Ticats would land in nearby Burlington through support from Halton Region was squelched by regional chair Gary Carr and Burlington Mayor Cam Jackson. Carr said the region welcomes new business but would not put any tax dollars into a stadium.

“It would have to be federal, provincial and private enterprise funding a stadium here,” he said.

Methinks our pal Allan, the mental titan that he is, needs to get back to the Spec.com and explain how Hamilton Council can have a 9-8 vote.

Perhaps he believes he now gets to vote. Given his delusional rantings, I am certain he believes he does get a vote for Ward 16............Jonestown; home of the Kool-Aid drinking BY apologists.

This isn't good news....

http://thompsdk.tumblr.com/

haha...Jamestown. thx for the chuckle.

Thats an ouch isn't it

Jason, a serious question. Isn't that land already zoned and approved for a 9,000 seat arena? Won't that get around an environmental assessment because its already done? If not the plan is DOA

trespassing charges loom?

I'm no zoning expert, but I think natural restricted zones over-ride zoning, or at least have to be taken into account during the process. Halton may have their own rules though. I'm not familiar with that region at all.

Yeah, this scenario reminds me a lot of the KANATA Senators arena fiasco. The one time I braved the trip from downtown Ottawa it took nearly 3 hours...it shouldn't take more than 30 mins. Back in the day there was talk of putting that arena in the Lebreton Flats area of Ottawa, just west of downtown. It's a brownfield with great transit access, bike lanes/walkable from downtown, near the river, etc. Didn't materialise because of the FABULOUS opportunities awaiting them in Kanata. What a joke that is and what a joke this situation is.

Thanks for an honest answer. I have no idea either

If you look at one of the maps, you'll notice that most of that land is in green, and the NE corner is not. I'm guessing that NE corner would be the zoned or developable land.

First of all, I'm 27 years old and I've lived in Aldershot for my entire life and I can tell you that as much as we love our quaint community, we hate when people think we're part of Hamilton and not Burlington. We pay taxes in Burlington, vote in Burlington, we are Burlingtonians, NOT Hamiltonians. Aldershot might be a quiet community but it's a tough community and we all stand by the fact that our identity is related solely to the city of Burlington, (although, Aldershot is far better than the rest of Btown). My only issue with the ti-cats moving to Burlington is that unfortunately the Aldershot area is full of a lot of old people and growing, as a matter of fact if you drive down Plains Rd you'll see 5 different retirement homes being built right now, to go along with the four other homes you'll find along the road. We in Aldershot call it death row. How does the city of Burlington plan on putting a great sporting complex and all the bars and infrastructure that come with the stadium, in a part of the city that seems to be exclusively for old cranky seniors. The city quickly needs to change the development of Aldershot from a place to go and die to an up and coming community.

Comment edited by btown on 2010-12-30 01:35:41

I think I read somewhere that the land in question is already zoned commercial. If so it has probably already gone through the NEC approval process if in fact they need that approval.

Besides that the province just ran the new Waterdown Rd. onramp through the forest alongside the GO station. So I think it would be kind of hard to argue that the area is environmentally sensitive with the province basically clearcutting a path for a road.

btown,

Up until regionalization in the early 70's Aldershot was part of Hamilton and Wentworth County. My Grandparents used to live there and they had a Hamilton phone number, a 522 exchange. Woodland cemetary as well as Lasalle park are still owned by the city of Hamilton. So whether you like it or not many still consider it to be apart of Hamilton, especially older Hamiltonians.

As for the stadium being built there I wouldn't worry about it. I have confidence that Burlington city council will have nothing to do with it. They will see this for what it is, a ploy by the Ticats to try to extort the City of Hamilton.

Here's an interactive zoning map of the King Road site, and a guide to the crazy quilt of permitted uses: goo.gl/ibI9d


By-Law 4000-3
http://cms.burlington.ca/Page3290.aspx?ContainerPageDefID=11&TemplateID=3


BC1 (Business Corridor)
http://cms.burlington.ca/zoning/Part3/part_3_4_bc1_zone_regulations.htm


O2 (Open Space)
http://cms.burlington.ca/zoning/Part10/part_10_5_o2_zone.htm


CE-412 (Employment Commercial)
http://cms.burlington.ca/zoning/Part4/part_4_5_ca_zone_regulations.htm
http://cms.burlington.ca/zoning/Part14/exception_412.htm


H-GE1-410 (Holding Zone)
http://cms.burlington.ca/zoning/Part11/part_11_1_h_zone.htm
http://cms.burlington.ca/zoning/Part14/exception_410.htm

"1. Prior to the removal of the 'H' Holding symbol prefix, the following uses are permitted: All uses permitted in a GE1 zone except for an indoor or outdoor sports arena and/or stadium.

2. Following removal of the 'H' Holding symbol prefix, the following additional uses are permitted: An indoor or outdoor sports arena and/or stadium with a maximum seating capacity of 9,000 persons"


H-XME-411 (Holding Zone)
http://cms.burlington.ca/zoning/Part11/part_11_1_h_zone.htm
http://cms.burlington.ca/zoning/Part14/exception_411.htm

"1. Permitted uses:
(a) Prior to the removal of the 'H' Holding symbol prefix, the following uses are permitted: Uses permitted in a GE1 zone, except for an indoor or outdoor sports arena and/or stadium.

(b) Following removal of the 'H' Holding symbol prefix, the following additional uses are permitted: Uses permitted in an MXE zone [Restaurant/Nightclub], subject to MXE zone regulations, except that Part 5, Table 5.4.2, Maximum Floor Area per Retail use, shall not apply.

(c) Notwithstanding the above, if a building permit(s) has been issued for the construction of a recreational or entertainment facility consisting of a sports arena and/or stadium on the adjacent GE1-410 zoned lands to the south, the following uses are permitted following the removal of the 'H' Holding symbol prefix: Uses permitted in an MXC zone, except for residential uses, supermarket/grocery store and large building supply store. These uses are subject to MXC zone regulations, except that Part 5, Section 4.5, Minimum Building Height, shall not apply.

By-Law 4000-3
http://cms.burlington.ca/Page3290.aspx?ContainerPageDefID=11&TemplateID=3

Just because the city of Burlington zones something employment lands, it still has to comply with the upper tier municipality's official plan, which designates that as part of the natural heritage system.

I'm sure the OMB will see this in any case.

Marianne Meed Ward what is her problem? The land is already zoned recreational/arena. It is private land so no cost to Burlington, I really do not know where the $100 milion is coming from but if it is coming from Hostco again no cost to Burlington, Paletta investing not only the land but $30 million, $10 million shortfall could be covered by Young or whoever gets the naming rights and as for running the operation I believe the Cats will do that the same as they offered in Hamilton. So far all I see is no extra costs at all to the Burlington taxpayer if the $100 million is an accurate figure. A good politician looks at all the facts before shooting off their bottom lip and it is obvious this woman has no idea. We should all wait to see what the plan is, these people have been in discussions for months so I am sure they have a plan too present to Burlington council that will answer all their questions.

I'd still advise Hamilton residents to make your views known to Hamilton council. I'm perfectly satisfied with an Aldershot stadium. It's closer to downtown Hamilton than Conf Park and it has decent views of our west end, downtown skyline, RBG lands and escarpment instead of choking on factory fumes. I have zero interest in Conf Park being brought to the table and Hamilton's FF being depleted so we can ram a stadium into a park next to factories.
Heck, I might even prefer Kay Drage to Conf Park, but again, it holds much needed soccer and baseball diamonds for the city. Seems to me it's WH, Aldershot or bust.

Yes jason, I'm happy with Aldershot also and while I did at one time pine for Confederation Park, I'm not so keen on that now as you say with the FF money allocation for that spot. I know Moncton is waiting to see what happens and losing the TigerCats to Moncton is not something I wish to see happen. Below is something I was just reading from the Times and Transcript from Moncton:

"The Canadian Football League (CFL) dream in Moncton is alive and well with renewed speculation about possibly getting a team for Atlantic Canada based in our city now that the Hamilton Tiger Cats organization has failed to reach an agreement with its home city for a new stadium.

Moncton needs to be prepared and ready to carry the ball to obtain a team if the opportunity arises, whether it be a move of the Ti-Cats to the Maritimes or the chance to establish a brand new team, both of which are entirely within the realm of the possible in coming years.

Diplomacy and realism, however, must be maintained. The Tiger Cats may well prefer to remain in southern Ontario, with Burlington apparently a leading contender if the team's owners can make suitable arrangements. And that is fair enough, the team having its roots and loyal fan base in that part of the country. Moncton doesn't need to go out and 'poach' another area's team, although it should be open to welcoming the team if it shows interest in heading this way. As well, our city must approach the whole idea of a CFL team with realism as well as optimism and being prepared to grasp the opportunity when it arises. Any deal must be well negotiated and workable for the city as well as the owners." ...

http://timestranscript.canadaeast.com/op...

Comment edited by HamiltonFan on 2010-12-30 10:49:47

Marianne Meed Ward what is her problem? The land is already zoned recreational/arena. It is private land so no cost to Burlington, I really do not know where the $100 milion is coming from but if it is coming from Hostco again no cost to Burlington, Paletta investing not only the land but $30 million, $10 million shortfall could be covered by Young or whoever gets the naming rights and as for running the operation I believe the Cats will do that the same as they offered in Hamilton. So far all I see is no extra costs at all to the Burlington taxpayer if the $100 million is an accurate figure. A good politician looks at all the facts before shooting off their bottom lip and it is obvious this woman has no idea. We should all wait to see what the plan is, these people have been in discussions for months so I am sure they have a plan too present to Burlington council that will answer all their questions.

You have to be pretty ignorant to actually believe that this stadium isn't going to cost the city of Burlington a single penny. There is no way in hell that the entire cost of the project will be held by private investors, the ti-cats and other levels of government. Driveway to driveway experience or not, Burlington is going to be expected to foot a large part of the bill, much like Hamilton has been.

Comment edited by MattM on 2010-12-30 10:50:14

At the very least, there's going to have to be lots of road improvements along King, North Service, & Plains.

As well there would have to be an increase of service or even a route extension to the BT #1 route which currently serves Aldershot GO station on the way to/from downtown Hamilton. The City of Burlington would be responsible for funding this... a city which already severely restricts transit funding.

Coming in tomorrow's Spectator:

BURLINGTON WELCOMES NEW YEARS GOOD NEWS

Burlington residents will wake to a 2011 full of good news thanks to the Tiger-Cats/Paletta decision to build a new stadium on King Road between the 403 and the CN. In keeping with their longstanding tradition of portraying nothing for something as something for nothing, both Tiger-Cats owner Bob Young and Paletta International executive Angelo Paletta extolled the virtues of a shiny new free stadium. When reached for comment Young said "my family has exploited hard-working Hamiltonians for decades. Whether it was working them to the bone in a cotton mill or just using their taxes to subsidize my hobby, where would Hamilton be without us?" In his typical "aw shucks" manner, the Caretaker said "Aldershot provides us with an opportunity to take our life's work regional". Paletta was unavailable at press time and was said to be scurrying around the Halton Land Registry Office hurriedly donating land to all and sundry as is his habit and in the same manner as he will be "donating" the land on King Road.

In a related story, Tiger-Cats President Scott Mitchell revealed the results of an economic study of the proposed King Road location. "when we add it all up, the new stadium should generate enough economic activity to wipe out the national debt, provide Burlington taxpayers with an annual $3,000.00 rebate and create enough jobs that everyone in Burlington will have two of them".

Newly-elected Burlington Mayor Rick Goldring said "Hamilton taxpayers basically told Bob Young to take a long walk on a short pier. Well, Burlington's got just the facility to do that."

Comment edited by realfreeenterpriser on 2010-12-30 11:45:09

A good politician looks at all the facts before shooting off their bottom lip and it is obvious this woman has no idea.

I'll tell ya one thing: she's got far more of an idea about most things than most people.

Have you checked out the advocacy sites she'd begun before she became a Councillor?

http://abetterburlington.ca/ http://votemarianne.ca/

(And yes, there's always her material at The Toronto Sun, and her appearances on Michael Coren's show.)

I'd celebrate if we had more candidates like her; she is very pro-active community-wise, media savvy (both mainstream and social), seems to have gotten into politics for the right reason...

...and from the way she's handled her early days in office, she seems to be very much aligned with my passion regarding and increased relationship between residents and their Councillors in local governance.

Comment edited by mystoneycreek on 2010-12-30 11:56:39

Members of Burlington city council were invited by The Hamiltonian web magazine to express their individual preliminary opinions on the Aldershot stadium proposal. It appears that Ward 2 councillor Marianne Meed Ward is the only one who has responded so far. Here is the link to today's article: http://www.thehamiltonian.net/

bigguy said

As for the stadium being built there I wouldn't worry about it. I have confidence that Burlington city council will have nothing to do with it. They will see this for what it is, a ploy by the Ticats to try to extort the City of Hamilton.

I tend to agree. The question is whether or not our Council will see it that way. I feel a flip flop coming on the Confed Park decision. I know there are some people who still want this site studied, and I don't want to open that wound. I believe we've spent too much time and money studying additional sites, and we have better things to do. I hope I'm wrong about the flip flop.

Hamilton taxpayers basically told Bob Young to take a long walk on a short pier. Well, Burlington's got just the facility to do that.

Brilliant. I giggled to myself at my desk.

Comment edited by HamiltonFan on 2010-12-30 14:43:00

And another plus for the CFL is it could be the perfect opportunity to rid itself of the word 'Hamilton' which basically has a negative implication to many Canadians I've met over the years.

Uh... Yeah.

Because a name-change is a great way to effect a sincere mindset-change in observers, right? As opposed to earning a shift in perception on the part of those people by, oh, I don't know, effecting substantive change in the subject itself?

I'm sorry if my glibness-

Actually, no; I'm not going to apologize. The truth is that people here -and elsewhere- have allotted value to 'what outsiders (supposedly) think'. And it mystifies me. Because nobody actually cares. Nobody outside the immediate vicinity cares. They're actually too busy with their heads down, living their lives.

People in BC don't actively care about anything going on in New Brunswick. People in PEI don't actively care about what's going on in Saskatchewan. People in St. John's don't actively care about what's going on in Rimouski. And people in Thunder Bay don't actively care about what's going on in Hamilton.

One of my personal credos is 'What anyone thinks of me is none of my business.'

Why would anyone who feels secure in who they are care about how anyone else feels about them?

Oh.

I get it. Hamiltonians don't feel secure about who they are, so they're susceptible to the (supposed) opinions of others. Of outsiders.

Well, then. We need to start doing something about that, huh? Individually and collectively?

(Yeah, I did get the sarcasm, the joke. It wasn't lost on me.)

Comment edited by mystoneycreek on 2010-12-30 15:17:27

Really... Burlington will have to pay to service it with increased Transit..? The service is there and wasted-- actual demand is mass transit that does pay for itself.

And it's hardly a National Park... Its no different form any parcel off every 4XX highway in the province.

Really-- are we going to say no development anywhere for anything ever because Ontario is running out of natural flatlands? It's off the highway and already zoned for a big arena and office buildings.

And now it's suddenly a protected environmental treasure..? The Paletta dev would have been held up long ago if any of that was true.

We shouldn't promote lies; of course there are trees and birds and bugs... That's 97% of Ontario! This is stuff is all hater's grasping at BS.

You're a fine outstanding person mystoneycreek I will say! That was an excellent read actually IMHHO.

Agree Wentworth.

Comment edited by HamiltonFan on 2010-12-30 15:30:36

Latest tweet from Burlington Councillor Marianne Meed Ward.


Tune in to SquareOff CHCH tv @5:30 to watch us debate Pan Am/Ticat stadium in Burlington. Me, Mark H Donna S & Sam M.

http://twitter.com/mariannmeedward

mystoneycreek wrote: "And people in Thunder Bay don't actively care about what's going on in Hamilton."

And it appears to me that people in Burlington don't care about the Tiger-Cats.

Has anyone seen any enthusiasm coming from anyone in Burlington in regards to the Tiger-Cats moving to their city?

I haven't Captain, that's why I don't think this will pan out and you'll see Bob Young working on Moncton. I think the CFL really wants just one team in southern Ontario actually but of course they won't admit that. And of course that one team as close to Toronto, the better. Some people say the Argos would die without the TigerCats but I don't believe that for a second. The CFL gets stronger with a team out east and the sooner the better IMHO.

HamiltonFan, your assumptions and ideas are fine and well, but the Cats are one of the biggest draws on TSN routinely and the CFL would be much weaker with only 1 southern Ontario team. The Moncton Blizzards won't draw half the tv numbers that the Cats do. And as we all know, sports is all about money (those who didn't know that, have just learned by watching the Cats over the past 6 months)

Comment edited by jason on 2010-12-30 17:43:17

I can't believe stuff I'm reading posted online... As an alternative, please pass-on:

[http://OnlyShot.ca](http://OnlyShot.ca"http://OnlyShot.ca")

This will keep the real news all in one place and RSS feed. I will add contact info tonight for all the councillors involved. Any help, ideas or tips would be very appreciated: email onlyshot(at)news-on.ca

I think we need to save the Pan-Am stadium and games, the massive investment, the jobs, and yes, even the Ti-Cats and some regional pride! Or...

- We will never see any stadium this side of Mississauga,
- Hamilton-Burlington will lose $100 million in regional investment and WORK,
- Watch the Tiger Cats negotiate with down-east or worse, Quebec City,
- Feel that dig, when we hear the word "Pan-Am" for many, many years...

Please pull together on this... And I ask having lived more years in Burlington than Hamilton this last decade... Municipal property lines aren't important here-- We all need and can still have all these jobs.

Comment edited by Wentworthst on 2010-12-30 17:58:09

At Wentworthst.

As a long time Tiger-Cat fan, I only want this team in Hamilton. No where else! Not Burlington.

I will go to any stadium in Hamilton.

If a significant chunk of Hamilton's FF or taxes go to any new stadium, then it better have significant impact for the city too and not just the Tiger-Cats.

If the Tiger-Cats and private partners build their own stadium, then i could care less where it went as long as it was in Hamilton.

I posted this over at the Tiger-Cat message board where i am active, and wanted to run this by people here, and in particular fans of the team. Feedback welcomed:

I am seeing the emergence of a backlash against Bob Young and Scott Mitchell. It's no wonder Bob Young has been quiet so far.

Councillors of this city, (another city council quite wary), local media and citizens and even fans. Absolutely zero excitement or buzz out of Burlington from either councillors or the citizenry.

This is not good.

Damage control is in order now, before this spins out of control.

The Hamilton Tiger-Cats simply cannot afford to lose the goodwill that has kept them afloat in this city for so long.

The Pan-Am Stadium isn't just about the Tiger-Cats-- Heck, its not even the only sport called "football" that will use this asset most of the year. (And I assure you, plenty in Burlington, Hamilton and Oakville do like soccer.)

This is for the Pan-Am games, a multi-use legacy venue for the region and $100+ million in investment in OUR area to create real jobs for people who need them.

Optionally, we can complain away our last chance, and go back to saying its the rest of Canada that doesn't care or respect us.

My #1 wish is for Bob Young to accept West Harbour.

Failing that, my #2 wish is for the city to present and win a case for an expandable 5,000 seat Pan Am stadium at West Harbour that would be used by the next Tiger-Cat owner.

As a fan of the Ti-Cats, it would be terrible if Hamilton City Council blew the opportunity to make the deal to save the team. So far, the city has handled the issue like a bunch of stubborn amateurs obsessed with social engineering instead of market realities, and the team itself is no better: they've also played deceptively with their sky-is-falling front-page antics. Hamilton has plenty of sites, plenty of negotiation options, and likely enough money. If they'd get rid of petulant behaviour and pigheadedness, they could find a workable solution.

On the other hand, as a resident of Aldershot, in NO WAY do I want to see this stadium in Burlington, with its attendant traffic, dubious economic benefits, and serious hit (downplayed, as usual) to the taxpaying pocketbook. Nor do I wish a white elephant if the team moves: this is not NHL, or NBA, or NFL.... this is a CFL whose teams are notorious for barely breaking even and/or skirting bankruptcy, so it certainly will not be a cash cow for Burlington regardless of what the official spin doctors say. This provides all the more reason for Hamilton Council to be more reasonable in selecting a Hamilton site.

And what does Burlington do if -- as some die-hard fans threaten here -- people simply refuse to attend games because they are offended by the disloyalty of the TiCats setting up shop in Aldershot? Are they supposed to just suck it up, and crank property taxes higher than the 28% they have already been raised in the past 4 years?

What works best for everyone is HAMILTON.

Shorter KS: "As an Aldershot resident, I don't want an expensive white elephant stadium in my backyard. I'd rather it be in Hamilton where I can enjoy it but Hamilton taxpayers get stuck paying for it."

KS,

Welcome to RTH. Your second paragraph gives is a very logical explanation for why you would not want the stadium in your borough. I'm having trouble with the first one. It seems incongruent with the first, so perhaps I've misunderstood. I'm having trouble with the statement that the City of Hamilton was interested in "social engineering" rather than market realities. The market realities you have mentioned in your 2nd paragraph are part of the reason we don't want a stadium unless there are significant economic benefits to the city and its taxpayers.

You bring up a good point about the possibility of lost fans, however, the ticats are going to have to rectify that problem wherever there team lands. They have no one to blame but themselves for that.

Government cannot continue to support failing businesses.

You'll get over it.

KS, you are bang on. I live in Hamilton. That's why I hope the stadium goes to Aldershot.

George - I agree 100%! I think we need to email council to remind them that they have the right to make that choice. Ivor Wynne was built as a small stadium and then expanded years later before the Cats came over from HAAA.

I realize that we risk losing the Cats from the Hamilton region altogether with Option #2, but hey, if they don't want $100 million in free money here because they can get more elsewhere, more power to them. There is always the hope that a new owner will love the WH and all will be fine.

Captain Kirk, too late. Permanent damage has been done to the brand, LARGELY in the under 40 demographic. The demographic that they might actually want to pretend exists in the next 20 years. They might as well move out of town because their fanbase is slowly going to die off and the younger crowd doesn't really see the cool factor in sitting on the 403 for 90 minutes while waiting to exit Waterdown Rd.

Comment edited by jason on 2010-12-30 21:35:33

Just a few thoughts, no particular order:

1. WH is dead as a site for a stadium that a BY owned team would play at.

2. An Aldershot stadium/complex will not be a white elephant at all, it will be a total success and this has nothing to do with if there is a buzz now or lack of buzz or if the current under 40 demographic doesn't think it's cool.

3. I am a TigerCat fan for life, regardless where the team plays including Moncton or whether the team will sit in hibernation for some years as the Ottawa Renegades have been.

4. The Rheem site and adjacent brownfield can be cleaned up with FF money and a stadium is not required at that site to accomplish this goal.

5. IWS will be torn down in a few years or perhaps sooner regardless if Sam Merullla thinks that is the only place the TigerCats should play out of.

6. Moncton will be an outstanding success for a CFL team, TigerCats or expansion franchise. The area will have a spirit like Saskatchewan even if it is a smaller demographic compared with southern Ontario. It will draw fans from all over the east coast. It will be a meeting place. Southern Ontario doesn't have that spirit of togetherness or cooperation although I must admit I really liked the fact that the mayors of Hamilton and Burlington were shown publicly together discussing this issue and other issues.

Comment edited by HamiltonFan on 2010-12-30 22:30:41

Despite his definitive disavowal in August, Halton Regional Chairman Gary Carr sounds like he's warming to the idea, so despite the iffy optics there might be an appetite to move ahead if the region agrees to a matching buy-in.

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/article/308334--aldershot-stadium-faces-major-political-test

Well, I'd like to comment...

But now someone calling themselves helliott@thespec has emailed to say I must stop using my Google News feed-site at http://OnlyShot.ca (It may not be clear-- this site takes all Google Alerts on "Aldershot Stadium" and displays them... Its really an impartial robot you turn on/off.)

This guy says,
"....In the absence of such acknowledgment, our legal representatives will be in touch with you shortly."

It does look like the same guy who runs his blog over at http://thespec.typepad.com

I'm still trying to get clarification from him, but now he doesn't acknowledge my reply, so maybe its just BS.

Comment edited by wentworthst on 2011-01-02 20:51:13

Thats not the way the Spec site works. I'd email Howard Elliot to alert him to the problem. Its in their best interests to make sure that nobody impersonates them in that fashion

sorry I misread your post and thought you meant you couldn't commemt here or on the Spec site. I now see the problem. I'd shut down your site if I were you

If a copyright holder believes in good faith that materials we host infringe on its rights, the copyright holder (or its agent) may send us a notification in accordance with the requirements set forth in the DMCA (Digital Millennium Copyright Act), requesting that we remove or block access to the infringing material.

All notifications sent to us by the copyright holder must be in writing and include the following:

- A physical or electronic signature of a person authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed;

- Identification of the copyrighted work claimed to have been infringed, or if multiple copyrighted works at a single on-line site are covered by a single notification, a representative list of such works at that site;

- Identification of the material that is claimed to be infringing or to be the subject of infringing activity and that is to be removed or access to which is to be disabled, and information reasonably sufficient to permit for us to locate the material;

- Information reasonably sufficient to permit us to contact you, such as an address, telephone number, and if available, an electronic mail address at which the complaining party may be contacted;

- A statement that the copyright owner or its agent has a good faith belief that use of the material in the manner complained of is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law; and

- A statement that the information in the notification is accurate, and under penalty of perjury, that you are authorized to act on behalf of the owner of an exclusive right that is allegedly infringed.

Upon receipt of a written notification that is compliant with the above terms, we will respond promptly to remove or disable access to the material alleged to be infringing.


Or... We could just talk about it-- whatever works for them.

(Since the Spectator told me I'm going to die 20 years sooner living here-- I guess I just have so much less to lose by living dangerously.)

Comment edited by wentworthst on 2011-01-02 22:40:14

Re DMCA--- in America, sure, but this is Canada where we have our own copyright law, the Copyright Act. You can use someone else's content if it falls under "Fair Dealing" which is much narrower than American "Fair Use" - basically for your own private study use, or citing for criticism, review, news reporting. The copyright holder sends you a cease and desist letter - sounds like that's what helliott@ did with his email. Next step if you don't agree/comply is go to court to settle it.

Here is the link to an article titled "Aldershot stadium faces major political test" (now renamed "Aldershot stadium in the balance, Goldring warns") by Ken Peters on the Hamilton Spectator website today: http://www.thespec.com/news/local/articl...

Comment edited by RenaissanceWatcher on 2011-01-03 08:33:42

And all of the Spec material is now gone.

Yes... I'm not fighting about this; the site will expire anyway.

To be honest, I said "fine, whatever", but took the opportunity for Ward 3 to let loose what we have wanted to say for a long-time to the man we feel responsible... And I'll say it here for any Spec writers:


Please, please stop hurting my neighbours (and our whole city to the rest of the world) with the printing of sweeping generalizations ON A MAP and reading off statistics-based interpretations of facts. You don't know how long I will live, nor my children!

And it might be nice not to reduce our candidate platforms to "also running".


I'm done... Please forgive any harshness, I'm so exhausted from arguing.

Comment edited by wentworthst on 2011-01-03 12:23:41

wentworthst,

You love The Spec as much as I do. Have a read of this recent editorial and cry or laugh.

What is a Journalist?

The National Post takes some shine off the situation:


“I would say it’s virtually impossible,” said Rick Goldring, who was sworn in as mayor last month. “I wouldn’t say it’s completely impossible, but I would say it’s virtually impossible.

“That’s a very challenging time frame and for us to really analyze something specific in that short period of time is a major, major challenge and it puts the odds of trying to achieve something longer for sure.”

- -

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/01/03/burlington-stadium-for-ticats-virtually-impossible

http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/01/03/burlington-stadium-for-ticats-virtually-impossible/

Here is a link to an article titled "Tight deadline threatens Burlington stadium involvement" by Ken Peters on the Hamilton Spectator website tonight. The article contains excerpts of interviews Mr. Peters had with Burlington Mayor Rick Goldring, Ward 2 councillor Marianne Meed Ward and Tiger-Cat financial adviser Doug Rye today but he did not apparently interview Hostco CEO Ian Troop. http://www.thespec.com/news/local/articl...

Comment edited by RenaissanceWatcher on 2011-01-03 21:21:40

Thanks RW, interesting about the absence of Ian Troop. I love this quote from The Spec,

"Doug Rye, the Ticat’s executive vice-president, said proponents would try to offer more specifics and clarify some issues for the mayor at the meeting. Rye rejected the suggestion the Aldershot pitch is just a ploy to get Hamilton council back to the bargaining table before the Feb. 1 deadline to settle a site. “This isn’t some kind of power play to try and force people’s hands in Hamilton,” he said."

"Well, yes Ken Peters, you've caught us. All of this Aldershot drama is complete BS we've concocted to keep Hamilton council and the citizens panicked about our ability to move. What else can I say?" More Ti-Cat pandering and propaganda from The Spec.

@IANAL... wrote: RE: DMCA

You are wrong in two ways:

It's not a statement re. jurisdiction, just a clear and specific set of instructions for how to complain and get a prompt response. It only states the source of a standards & practices policy.... Read it again; it asks for a one-page (admittedly, detailed) letter, not some Troll-tantrum in a web contact form on a Sunday.

And I do need to be in accordance with DMCA, since the server's in Arizona and an Inc. in Delaware pays for it.

Besides... Why should we be afraid of a website that offers up 300+ ways to Add This? then suing you for doing it? That's absurd and courts are not stupid nor respond well to wasting their time.

@mrjanitor wrote: You love The Spec as much as I do. Have a read of this recent editorial and cry or laugh.

I did love the Spec, but also hold a Managing Editor accountable for false narrative of extreme poverty and civic chaos they broadcast to the world (and seemingly unwittingly) as Spec, HCN and now Canadian Press.

However, I still think its nice he mentioned Ryan's work in particular... I was saying to someone yesterday just how unique this site is-- there's a reason the guy's in Buffalo want one too...

I noted he only lists sites that have no business-model to threaten Metroland. But you are right... Funny when he says:

"a growing number of local websites that report, re-report, interpret or aggregate the news..."

...on the same day Howard's threatening to send his legal reps out for doing that.

http://www.canada.com/business/Burlington+stadium+ropes/4056348/story.html

When asked if Burlington may get a deadline extension if Hamilton formally withdraws from the process next week, Troop held firm: "Unfortunately the answer is still no. We are absolutely out of time."

That answer was not well received by some Burlington councillors.

"If that's the case then fine, we're out of it," said councillor Rick Craven, whose ward includes the proposed stadium site. "This process will not go ahead in Burlington without full and complete community consultation and that's going to take time."