Raise the Hammer

Mammoliti is quite the character, your profile of him doesn't do his assoholery justice. I doubt he has much chance of getting elected, not only does he alienate just about everyone inside the highway ring (401, DVP, Gardiner, 427), but people remember his spendthrift ways burning through public money to run his constituency office. His absurd hate on for cyclists is just the icing on the cake. He and Rob Ford deserve each other.

What I love more than any article (at The Star, here, or elsewhere) are the comments generated. It's a powerfully simple way to get a bead on how at least some people are thinking. (I'm not saying it accurately reflects much of anything at all...excepteht profile of those who have taken the time to type their thoughts.) And the ones on this issue show just how vehement the pro-auto portion of the readers can be; I've been perusing them at The Star and shaking my head all the while.

Though they've confirmed my suspicions about the culture (and how deeply it's embedded), it's sad nonetheless. (Elsewhere on RTH it's been opined that people create their misery subconsciously. Maybe I do this when I go to the Comments sections...)

Unfortunate but not surprising. This "I don't use it so why should I pay for it" rhetoric has been slung from all sides for too long. We all use our society, infrastructure, public resources, etc... to what degree and in what way is pointless. We all need to pay for it.

As for the fee, frankly if the bike lobby wants to decrease the use of cars this may just be something they have to get used to. Seems I've been making this point a lot lately, but here we go again... cars generate large amounts of tax revenue. If we want fewer cars on our roads (and just fewer cars in general) than we have to recoup the lost money from somewhere... taxing the alternatives in one way or another is likely to be the approach of government

Comment edited by Kiely on 2010-04-16 08:19:18

If every concievable source of revenue doesn't even cover the cost of road operations, just imagine how big the shortfall is when you then include every concievable cost related to driving.

For example, the cost of accidents in Ontario adds $18B - more than all driving related revenues.

More bikes = less cars = less accidents.

Comment edited by jonathan dalton on 2010-04-16 09:24:00

Cars do not generate enough tax revenue to pay for themselves:

In fact, Transport Canada did a study [PDF link] in 2005, which found that the annual total financial costs of the road system in Canada are $16.5 to $25.8 billion, while annual revenues from fuel taxes and fees at the federal and provincial levels were only $12.8 billion, i.e. a shortfall of between $3.7 and $13 billion per year.

Yes they do, they are the king of consumer products being many people's first or second largest financial investment. Fuel taxes and fees are not the only money generated from cars. They create jobs and therefore income tax revenue, there is GST and PST on new cars, PST on used cars, GST and PST on car parts and service, tire taxes, drive clean revenue, banks make interest on the leases and loans, etc... So the numbers presented in the link provided are not accurate of the full financial impact of cars. Cars are literally the engine of our economy (unfortunately). Why do you think governments in almost every major car manufacturing country threw money at the car manufacturers to bail them out? They know the financial impact. Not that I agree with what they did mind you.

$16.5 Billion to $25.8 billion is a pretty big range. Their numbers can't even provide an accurate financial short fall to within $9 billion??? Also the roads are not solely for cars. Emergency services, food, product and home fuel delivery, (and yes, even bikes) depend on our road system so assigning full cost of the road system to cars is fudging the numbers.

cyclists already pay as much tax

No they don't. If you are talking simply property or income tax , sure, but we are taxed way beyond that in this country. There is no fuel tax on bikes, no registration or license fees (i.e., tax), no insurance costs (which you pay tax on) and GST and PST are much less on a new bike than a new car. Owning a car causes the owner to be exposed to many more taxes than owning a bike.

I support the bike lobby but let's start dealing with the truth here Ryan. You discredit your cause when you don't.

to punish and deter cycling for base political reasons

To be clear, I do not disagree with this statement... but I am not surprised some politician proposed a fee either.

Comment edited by Kiely on 2010-04-16 09:45:52

Missing from that transport Canada report is the net economic benefit. It also excludes the the the base utility factor.

WRT to Ryan's comment about the use of Toronto's roads from those from out of town. Because Toronto has seen fit to have policies in place that have strangled job creation, the surrounding municipalities now import labour from Toronto. More people drive out of the city for work purposes than drive in.

Cars are not an investment.

Look up the definition of "investment" in the dictionary Ryan.

Heck even just use the dictionary in MS Word:

"a purchase, especially something that somebody should be able to use for a relatively long time"

Are you really going to be this obtuse in this discussion?

I could go on countering your other retorts but I think Schmadrian said it well enough.

> Cars are not an investment. All cars depreciate by some 15% as soon as you roll them off the lot, and they continue to lose value the longer you own them until they're only good for salvageable parts.

Houses at least tend to retain their (inflation-adjusted) value over the long term; cars are an economic sinkhole by any measure.

A car could be regarded as a necessary cost to get to work, except that the only reason people 'need' cars to commute is that we have made political decisions to arrange our land use (through public infrastructure spending decision and zoning regulations) around the assumption of mandatory car ownership.

That is, we have manufactured a self-fulfilling requirement. The free market has almost nothing to do with it.



This paragraph is so true, its' frustrating. How often in one's life do we intentionally go and buy something that instantly starts losing gobs of it's value the second you take it from the seller? We've been forced into this situation by the misuse of public money and through multi-trillion $ subsidies (to self proclaimed hard core capitalists no less).

Our society continues to amaze. I had to laugh this morning reading quotes from people who came to see Palin last night because she is "such a maverick and despises the big government, big media, big business etc...."

$12 million per speaking engagement, $1,000 per autograph and photo (give your heads a shake people). The only reason anyone knows her is because of big business and the media.

I'm sure the bigwigs at the largest corporations and biggest media empires just laugh their heads off in their board meetings when they hear people talk about her (or anyone else like her regardless of political leaning) as if she's some anti-establishment saviour. I wonder what it's like for those folks to sit back and know that they have complete control over society and over people's minds. It's easy to fault them, but the real blame lies in the masses who have permanently turned off their brains.

"permanently turned off their brains. "

... and that is why it is so difficult for people to see the blazingly obvious, such as:

"That is, we have manufactured a self-fulfilling requirement."

Many would literally rather go to their death holding onto their existing belief system. As the air fouls, as the population sickens, fingers in ears and eyes shut. To be fair, not all of it is due to brains offline. Indoctrination into the prevailing way of thinking starts very early in life, is pervasive, and uses the latest mind control techniques developed by marketing industries. There is no law of nature that makes it so. It is carefully Manufactured Consent. Downvotes are expected and accepted; it certainly can hurt to hear the truth (but the truth is much more rewarding and beautiful in the long run).

$12 million per speaking engagement, $1,000 per autograph and photo (give your heads a shake people).

I think you've got some numbers mixed up. Palin makes $100,000 per speaking engagement. She has however, made over $12 million since quitting the governorship.

It's easy to fault them, but the real blame lies in the masses who have permanently turned off their brains.

I realize you're generalizing, but it's worth noting that Palin is very unpopular, even in the US, so the masses may not be that dumb after all.

You make some okay points airhead and mikeonthemountain.

But do you guys really believe this is nothing but a self-fulfilling requirement and people are forced into buying cars?

Yes it is true to some extent, our society and infrastructure does favour the car but people want to buy cars, enjoy buying cars and buy cars well beyond what they need... many people want cars. Many people simply want to buy stuff period.

Simply writing these people off as having "turned their brains off" or under the control of some form of "mind control" (while implying you are not) isn't going to help anything.

I tried to present the challenge that this movement faces (i.e., the current roll of the car in our economy and society) to spawn discussion of how we make this transition but instead people would rather argue the validity of that challenge, argue cars aren't an investment (semantics), deny cars and related industries generate wealth for businesses and governments, deny we need roads for more than just people's cars, thereby making the "cars don't cover road cost" argument somewhat moot, by claiming things such as emergency vehicles are still "all motor vehicles" (I guess firemen should take their bikes or transit to people's homes???) and post comments saying those who don't share their opinion are brain washed.

sigh Once again more rhetoric and opinions from the fringes and a complete lack of discussion about solutions.

people want to buy cars, enjoy buying cars and buy cars well beyond what they need... many people want cars.

Of course they do! And they're welcome to go on doing it but don't expect me to help pick up the tab. Let's see how much they want to buy cars when they have to pay the full cost? I'm betting people will still want to buy cars, but not as many cars and not quite as big.

Heck, even Canada has smaller average car size than America, why, because our gas tax is higher. That's all.

As for solutions we know what to do. Your "solution" seems to be to explain why the solutions won't work???

So I looked up the definition of "investment" as a sanity check. Dictionary.com defines "investment" as

Really Ryan?

I already pointed out I was using it as an informal synonym for the word purchase. You seriously want to debate this?

In fairness, I have to concede that your reluctance to conceive of your car in realistic economic terms

Did I say cars are a profit making financial investment? No. You're putting words in my mouth.

Good luck converting public opinion to your cause Ryan... I actually agreed with your main point and was simply presenting some challenges it faced, but now your obtuse and somewhat juvenile behavior has made me want to disagree with you simply as a matter of principle.

No wonder this city is messed up.

I'm betting people will still want to buy cars, but not as many cars and not quite as big.

I think they will. I also hope we can see something besides the fuel burning mode of transportation we use now.

As for solutions we know what to do. Your "solution" seems to be to explain why the solutions won't work???

First step to a solution is understanding the challenge nobrainer. As for "we know what to do", I'm not so sure, I think some people here have a very utopian notion of what will work and why.

What I have learned this week:

Don't challenge the validity of the FCP on the Hamiltonian website.

Don't piss in the kool-aid on RTH.

: )

Don't piss in the kool-aid on RTH.

It's called an argument. That's what message boards are for. You're not doing that bad - why are you giving up?

Excellent troll kiely! A++

- Kiely: A car is an investment.

- Ryan: No it's not, it's a liability.

- Kiely: Look up the definiton of investment.

- Ryan: The definition is...

- Kiely: You're a jerk for looking up the definition.

- Ryan: ???

Again well done. Great form. The "piss in the koolaid" signoff was a tour-de-force!

"Good luck converting public opinion to your cause Ryan... I actually agreed with your main point and was simply presenting some challenges it faced, but now your obtuse and somewhat juvenile behavior has made me want to disagree with you simply as a matter of principle."

Bwuhahahah, you realized this a few months too late, Kiely.

Good analysis (which Ryan et al. frequently provide) does not necessarily make good politics (which they often willfully ignore). But then again, the hardcore RTH'ers have never turned down an opportunity to let perfection stand in the way of the good.

Comment edited by Borrelli on 2010-04-16 14:54:35

"I guess firemen should take their bikes or transit to people's homes???"

There's that false dichotomy again. The only possibilities are one absolute, or another absolute.

No one is asking for anything to be totalitarian or absolute. Just a bit of balance and sanity.

@kiely @borelli I'm confused, you want to debate the issue but then when someone debates it with you you complain that they're challenging your argument instead of just agreeing with you. Do you think you have the right to be agreed with just because? Maybe Ryan et al wouldn't be good at politics but from what I can tell they're not in politics, they're arguing public policy. If you don't want to argue your opinions on public policy then don't post them on a public policy discussion site. If you do post them you should be ready to debate them.

It almost sounds like you're equivocating now but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and chalk it up to a misunderstanding.

This is why I provided the quote for my intended meaning Ryan: "a purchase, especially something that somebody should be able to use for a relatively long time"

It is a misunderstanding and that's cool. It is also cool if I get beat up on an issue (my skin is thick) but I would prefer to get beat up in a way that is creating constructive discussion... and I'm not seeing that here today.

If your idea of "presenting some challenges" is to make claims that turn out to be factually untrue (like your claim that cars generate net tax revenue).

If you accept that roads are required whether people drive cars or not (which I have used the emergency vehicle argument to highlight) and privately owned cars are not the sole reason for our road network, than yes cars do generate positive economic benefit. I'm sorry but if you want to continue to debate that fact you will have to be more specific regarding your argument to the contrary.

you must be willing to change your mind as your understanding of the facts changes. If you're not willing to do that, we're not going to have a productive debate.

I have stated throughout this thread that I am a supporter and essentially in agreement with you, you seem to be the one who is unable to concede a point.

If your point is that we need to find ways to make our case to people who believe things that are untrue and aren't willing to change their minds, I don't really know how to respond to that.

Not exactly my point Ryan. Yes you will have the "grasshut dwellers" who don't want anything to change ever, but you can't go chasing after them. My main point is the roll the car currently plays in our economy and society is going to create some very unique challenges for us to deal with if we want to reduce our dependence on it... but you don't seem to agree with that?

If we are ever going reduce the number of cars we have on the roads, which I believe we should, we need to understand the economic impact that the reduction in car usage and logical reduction of sales will have on our economy. Just take a walk (or bike ride) around this city and count the number of auto dealers, service centres, auto parts stores, tire shops, etc... and think how you'll replace those jobs. Mass transit could help but let me give you an idea of the difference in jobs required to support both. When I was right out of school I worked at a car dealer, one car dealer could employ 50+ people. Later in my career I worked in transit service for a large NA city... the entire commuter rail fleet was maintained by ~150 people. So in this example for every 3 lost car dealers you would need 1 new commuter rail system to replace the lost jobs. It will be much easier to lose the dealer jobs than it will be to build an entirely new commuter rail system. Very basic example but hopefully it paints the picture.

Our governments have revealed a complete inability to cope with the type of change that will be required to create the sustainable cities we live in. We can't just build some bike lanes, jack up the price of gas, slap restrictions, tolls and fees on cars and hope for the best and to agree with your point, slapping $30 fees on bikes isn't going to work either and is largely pointless (but as I said, not surprising that a politician would suggest it). We need to have some of these hard discussions now and that's why I don't mind taking some heat... We need to discuss what will replace the car in our economy, it is not going to be a simple thing to do and I believe this is a vital topic to be discussed in this debate. Apparently others on here including yourself do not.

Some numbers for you Number of new cars sold in Canada last year - 1.6 million Say the average price is $20K, (which would be low), GST and PST alone are $2700 X 1.6 million = $4,320,000,000. If we reduce that by say half we are still going to need our roads (so that cost isn't going anywhere, perhaps slightly reduced because of less maintenance) and we will need to find an extra $2,000,000,000 in the budget to replace the sales tax income alone… not to mention lost income taxes, (because we will lose jobs), tire taxes, gas taxes, license fees, etc…

See where I'm coming from now? Hopefully we're back on track ; )

Comment edited by Kiely on 2010-04-16 15:23:26

Kiely: Look up the definiton of investment.

Ryan: The definition is...

Kiely: You're a jerk for looking up the definition.

I provided the quote of the definition I used to clarify how I used the word.

Is reading comprehension an issue on here???

The "piss in the koolaid" signoff was a tour-de-force!

"Sign off"??? You wish.

It's called an argument. That's what message boards are for. You're not doing that bad - why are you giving up?

Oh, I'm not Jonathon.

Comment edited by Kiely on 2010-04-16 15:37:05

"I guess firemen should take their bikes or transit to people's homes???"

There's that false dichotomy again. The only possibilities are one absolute, or another absolute. - mikeonthemountain

It is hardly a false dichotomy to say we still need roads whether people are driving personal vehicles or not and then providing an example.

What do you suggest mikeonthemountain, rip up the roads?

Okay, I'll bite:

If not by motor vehicle how do you propose we provide such things as police coverage, emergency services, garbage and recycling pickup?

And no, you can't say a flying car! : )

Comment edited by Kiely on 2010-04-16 15:34:59

Do you think you have the right to be agreed with just because? - arguist

Not at all, I simply want people to discuss/debate the main issue not trivial aspects, individual statements taken out of context or semantics (although Ryan and I have decided that was simply a misunderstanding : )

"It is hardly a false dichotomy to say we still need roads whether people are driving personal vehicles or not and then providing an example."

Exactly.

"What do you suggest mikeonthemountain, rip up the roads?"

No, I suggest that it is idiotic to think that either everyone drives, or nobody drives. That would be a dichotomy. Clearly some people need to drive. Emergency vehicles and delivery vehicles certainly need to drive. Thus reality is not a dichotomy. Thus, suggesting that advocating that there be AVAILABLE alternatives to driving being interpreted to mean one is advocating that emergency crews should be kicked out of their vehicles, would be an example of a false dichotomy.

If they invent suitable flying cars, bonus, emergency response times would improve. But no, no such requirement is being suggested or even advocated at this time, relax. Normal roads will do just fine lol.

Oh my :)

Comment edited by mikeonthemountain on 2010-04-16 16:48:02

With significantly less automotive traffic on the roads, roads will last a lot longer.

Something else to keep in mind is that good policy rarely makes good politics when it's a change from the status quo.

The simplest/best solution is to raise the gas tax. As long as gas is cheap, people will justify a two hour commute or a hop in the car for anything. Raise the price and suddenly the bike looks a lot more attractive as a means of transportation.

we need to understand the economic impact that the reduction in car usage and logical reduction of sales will have on our economy.

While I certainly understand the point being made here, I think it becomes a bit nebulous when trying to guess at what may or may not happen in specific economic sectors.
An increase in cycling from say 2% of total trips to 10% of total trips is very unlikely to result in dealerships closing down. As a starting point, we could see some better deals from car dealerships, which I'm sure even the biggest anti-bike person would appreciate. Furthermore, it could easily be noted that if there were less cars on the roads and more room available for bike lanes, less lanes, bigger sidewalks, more street trees and safer urban neighbourhoods that we'd see an increase in home values in neighbourhoods currently plagued with one-way freeways. Terry Cooke highlighted this point during last week's Code Red series when discussing the importance of quality of life as a means of improving previously depressed neighbourhoods such as Hamilton's West Harbour area. We'd also see more businesses on business friendly and people-friendly streets. The increased taxes from increased home/property values and an influx of new businesses would be a huge plus on the economy.
I guess this discussion could go back and forth for some time, but I think the pros need to be weighed against the cons. If car dealerships were to slightly lower prices due to lower sales and perhaps lay off a few employees, is that a bigger loss than all that is to be gained in neighbourhoods that are encouraged to spring back to life?

I realize this is a moot discussion in Hamilton. Our chamber of 'commerce' and political leaders have made it clear that they're completely happy with Walmart flourish on our city's outskirts and kilometer after kilometer of abandoned, depressed buildings and low property values through the central city. The Spec calls it Code Red. The Chamber calls it a flourishing and growing economy.

Another important point about the economics of autocentricity is that the costs of car ownership easily make up 30 to 40% of a middle class income. As Kiely contends, alot of that money keeps people employed in various fields from manufacturing to sales to maintenance, and it's all taxed. But without cars, that money would still exist, and people would spend it on other things, all of which would employ people and pay taxes. We had a functional industrial economy before cars, and we can have one with less cars. Bicycle manufacturing and streetcar manufacturing used to employ people and pay taxes in Canada. So did agriculture and neighbourhood level retail, to a much greater extent than they do today.

On an incremental level, reduced car ownership will have a net positive effect on the economy as those who go car-free have more disposable income which they will spend in higher value added industries that tend to keep more of their wealth in the community. As the mode split moves significantly away from cars, new industries and revenue streams will be created out of the demand for non-automotive transportation.

Good point Jon. It's been researched and said that the average annual cost to own a car in Canada is $8,000. If I had an extra $8,000 in my pocket each year I'd have the nicest house on the street and would see all of my renovation wish list come to fruition. Instead I have to be very selective about what home improvements we do due to money constraints. And that's just in one area. I'm sure I'd use some of that extra money for more leisure activities - shows, dining out etc.... as well as being more selective in my grocery shopping to pretty much buy all local, all the time. And of course, I'd be saving more money (although I get the feeling our society's bigwigs frown upon this activity).

^Actually the $8000 is for a small car. Average car is $10-12000.

yikes!! that's scary.

For all their negatives, there are some positive side effects of owning a car.

For example, the martial arts classes my son attends are located a 15 minute drive away, yet would easily take an hour and a half by bus to get there. Considering that there are three kids in transit and it's around supper time, that's pretty significant. Why not something around the corner from us? Not all instructors are created equally!

Getting to a client meeting anywhere in the GTA is feasible. Transit? Only in limited circumstances. Sure I'd rather use the phone and internet, but sometimes ya gotta press hands.

Essentially they are multipliers of time and convenience. Can they be wasteful? Absolutely. That doesn't make them wasteful by definition.

The other side of it is the pleasure factor. Some of us derive a lot of pleasure from our cars. Carving a corner nicely or nailing a smooth heel and toe shift can bring a smile to my face quite easily. Are these worth the costs to me when coupled with the convenience of the vehicle as a whole? Absolutely.

You want to get people out of cars? Reduce the convenience of them and increase the cost to use them. Parking is one of Ryan's favourite issues and is wholly appropriate. Double the cost of gas and you'll see far less usage (and put the proceeds from the tax to transit!). Will I pay those costs? Absolutely. Maybe not always with a smile, but it will be paid.

Then we get to the arguments that cars become a tool for the wealthy as the poor can't afford them anymore. Sigh.

Comment edited by Brandon on 2010-04-19 07:40:35

Brandon, your experience is precisely why I can't image that car dealerships will close down if the rate of cycling increases. Our society has subsidized the automobile in the way we've developed and for most families there will always be a need for a car for inter-city trips or longer local trips. Families will be more easily able to ditch their second car or leave the car at home when cycling is a viable option.

Incremental change is the only sensible way to go. Otherwise we may get to a critical point (when oil prices skyrocket, when the planet starts vomiting and spinning the other way (could happen...?), when every commuter does a Michael Douglas whilst stuck in in traffic...) when sudden drastic changes need to be made.

I remember the UK miners strikes of the early 80's. The Labour government of the 70's ignored the writing on the wall for the English coal industry for years. Then Thatcher came in and took the inevitable, but necessarily drastic, action. It wasn't pretty.

Balanced transportation is what we are going to get. Whether we do it the 'nice' way or the hard way, it's going to happen. We should stop fretting about job losses and make incremental changes that we can all adjust to.

A recent NY study shows that the residents of NY save $19 billion a year because of their lower rate of car ownership - most of which is spent locally, boosting the NY economy:

http://www.nydailynews.com/lifestyle/201...

Bonus: a staggering stat on the parking space needed if New Yorkers owned cars at the same rate as other NA cities - basically all of Manhattan. Hard to have a thriving, dynamic city and a car in every garage. Can't be done. Cars just take up too much damn space.

No, I suggest that it is idiotic to think that either everyone drives, or nobody drives. - mikeonthemountain

I never said that... are you debating me or yourself?

What I was trying to explain is that we need roads even without personal vehicle use so assigning full cost of the road network to personal vehicles as some here have tried to do is being disingenuous. That was my only point… disagree if you like.

With significantly less automotive traffic on the roads, roads will last a lot longer. - Brandon

Biggest factor on our road maintenance is trucks and weather and the bike-lobby doesn't solve either of those issues.

I disagree with the idea that we can't start making incremental changes right now. - Ryan

Of course we can, I never said we couldn't... I have disagreed with you about what they should be though (e.g., bike paths versus bike lanes).

It's a legitimate issue - Ryan

That you spent how many posts arguing with me about?

Maybe next time Ryan we'll be able to avoid the BS arguments and get to the root of the issue quicker?

While I certainly understand the point being made here, I think it becomes a bit nebulous when trying to guess at what may or may not happen in specific economic sectors. - Jason

This is why open, honest and focused discussion/debate is important.

Then we get to the arguments that cars become a tool for the wealthy as the poor can't afford them anymore. Sigh. - Brandon

It is a valid argument. Many of our efforts to change behavior become tax or fee based which basically sends the message if you have enough money you can do whatever you want.

Sin taxes, user fees, tolls, etc… can be useful tools but when they are the go to solution every time it becomes a problem and does add to the ever growing rich vs poor divide.

Let's stick with cars for example… taxing gas, putting up tolls, increasing the cost of car usage is one way to reduce cars on our roads and the one often cited by people who fancy themselves as progressive. But to me, taxing citizens is anything but progressive. What if the government gave companies incentives to allow more employees to telecommute or simply told them they had to like they tell us we have to pay more? I know lots of people who drive to work, work on their computers, answer emails or phones interact with very few or no people face-to-face and then go home. Do you need to commute 1 hour to do that in this day and age? No, but we never seem to take that type of different approach when it is just too easy to make citizens pay more.

Change can't always be the citizen's responsibility or burden, it is time to spread the responsibility for change to a broader segment of our society. Governments and corporations need to start to doing more. Governments need to look beyond the easy tax grab solution and corporations need to start being more progressive and make changes to the way their businesses run to help us shift the way our society runs to a more sustainable mode.

[1] Aside from trace amounts of eroded tire rubber and brake pad material.

Don't forget fuel, ie. the GHG emissions from the production of the food required to replace calories burned.

So now it's "utopian" to support a living wage?

"Kiely"'s intellectual ancestors were the ones going "Of course we HATE slavery, it's AWFUL, but you can't just expect the Empire to ban it overnight, I mean think of the economic hardship!"

Lower Hamilton needs a highway to allow for east west travel. If this were the case, Main St could be made much more people friendly. Bike lanes, wider sidewalks and perhaps even some trees.

The roads aren't going anywhere with or without personal vehicles on them so this is a moot point.

Cluetrain: the cost of roads is variable. More cars means more cost.

z jones, what's also a variable cost is how much the government spends on freebies, like health, education, welfare and pensions. Since 2002, Ontario government expenditures on goods and services has increased from $92.8B to $118B (2002 dollars), or 3.48% a year. In that same period of time, Ontario's GDP has gone from $477.7B to $514.3B (2002 dollars), or 1.07% per year.

So while Ontario's economy was lavishing the public with freebies, things that lefties claim help the economy grow, the result was economic stagnation.

In contrast, from 1995 to 2002, government spending on goods and services went from $80.9B to $92.8B, or 1.9% per year. Did this slower rate of government spending on free health and education hurt the economy? Well, let's see what the numbers tell us. From 1995 to 2002, GDP went from $360.7B to $477.7B (2002 dollars), or 4.1% per year.

Contrary to what lefties like to think, free health and education do not help the economy grow, they impede it. Whereas businesses compete and therefore innovate, government health and education are monopolies. That is what Ontario's economy has become since Dalton McGuinty took over, less competitive and more focused on propping up government employees.