Raise the Hammer

Hey! Dreschel is back online! Wonder if this has anything to do with Estok's departure.

"Of course, the principal reason we North Americans drive cars is that we talk about building public transit but spend our money building all-you-can-drive roads, highways and parking lots."

Uh, no... That's just you providing some self-created 'logic', Ryan. A more accurate quote might be: "Of course in North America some of us talk about building public transit but because of how deeply-entrenched the automobile is in our societal value system, we still spend our money building all-you-can-drive roads, highways and parking lots."

Did you happen to catch some of the discussion at The Toronto Star this week with the article addressing whether that city was a 'bike city'? The vehemence of Torontonians (based not just on the comments, but on the comment voting) concerning driving was quite...well, sobering. And the truth is, it's all the more vehement here in Hamilton.

"Foxcroft's transit defeatism merely advocates continuing to do what we've always done because it's what we've always done."

This might be part of the overall truth connected to his comments. But stepping back a few paces, it's easy to just as quickly say 'Ryan's pro-transit stance merely advocates the change he believes in simply because it makes sense to him...ignoring the reaity that to effect a value change, you won't get where you want to simply by marshalling out the same facts over and over and over again.' That's not what turns people around, gets them thinking in entirely different ways, actually gets them considering change. That might be what you want to believe, but that's not how peoples' behaviour shifts...and it's not how Life works.

This pro-transit citizen wants a less car-centric world...but can't see the sense in railing against things...and expecting change from the resulting volume -and cogency- alone.

Hamilton needs the Perimeter Road -->

http://www.hamilton.ca/NR/rdonlyres/5AB94776-4B1C-4A2D-97C2-986BDB273FA7/0/SSAPR1404PERIMETERRD.pdf

This project would really help the struggling downtown.

^Yay sarcasm.

Join the Hamilton Civic League on March 22 to discuss this topic in person. The theme for this month's installment of the pre-election Speaker Series is "Transportation in Hamilton: Challenges, Goals and Possibilities." The panel will include representatives from the Hamilton Chamber of Commerce-Transportation Committee, Transit Users Group, McMaster Institute for Transportation & Logistics, Hamilton Light Rail and Transportation for Liveable Communities.
We're asking what specific considerations should inform the City's transportation strategy and how Hamilton's interests with regard to movement and mobility should be defined.

Time & Place: Monday, March 22 @ Volunteer Hamilton, 267 King Street East. 7pm-9pm.

Lol I'm looking forward to seeing all those delusional transportation planners and business leaders explain how Hamilton needs more funding for transit.

"most of whom also own and drive cars"

I guess Transit advocates are "damned if you do and damned if you dont". If you own a car you're not allowed to want better transit but if you don't own a car you're a loony activist who's opinion doesn't matter.

Money talks, and none of you have enough to make an impact.

At least you understand exactly how our 'democracy' works.

Hey guys. Remember when gas prices went up?

that will never happen again, the market won't allow it

Ryan,

I recall in fall 2008 when oil prices hit $147 you made predictions that oil was going to hit $200 in 2009 and even higher in 2010 (many others on this site predicted this as well). But it didn't happen! Why don't you share the predictions you made on this website with its readers and fess-up that you were wrong? You know, provide us with the raisethehammer.com links where you state your (incorrect) predictions.

@ Jon Dalton

"Hey guys. Remember when gas prices went up?"

When gas prices went up to $1.30 very few people opted to take public transit. Some people opted to purchase more fuel efficient cars. The reason? Even with higher gas prices it is still cheaper (when accounting for one's time - time is money for those of us with lives) to drive your car.

This is what you transit nuts just don't understand. And this is why transit will NEVER be competitive with cars in NA.

Hey, If they built that perimeter road like the drawing shows, it would go right by the new stadium. Thus making the naysayers to the stadium like it better?? Maybe this is all a giant master plan we little people aren't privy too, lol.

When gas prices went up to $1.30 very few people opted to take public transit. Some people opted to purchase more fuel efficient cars.

Funny, why do I remember reading so many articles about transit systems being overwhelmed with new riders and bike shops being sold out of bikes back in the summer of 08?

The reason? Even with higher gas prices it is still cheaper (when accounting for one's time - time is money for those of us with lives) to drive your car.

Certainly wasn't the case with me (I have a job, and a life). I use transit every day. So do you, if I recall correctly.

This is what you transit nuts just don't understand.

I appreciate those terms of endearment but for many of us transit riders it's simply the logical thing to do.

This is what you transit nuts just don't understand. And this is why transit will NEVER be competitive with cars in NA.

Define competitive. Would that mean 100% of drivers would switch to transit, or maybe 30%? The overall difference in transit modal share between NA and Europe is only about 10%. Us transit 'nuts' don't think everyone will stop driving, but with better service and the inevitable rise in fuel costs, a significant percentage will.

Comment edited by Jonathan Dalton on 2010-03-15 09:48:50

It seems that bigguy1231 only joins forums to squelch at LRT... It WILL happen! You know why? Because everyone in this City knows it NEEDS to happen!

Check out the PROFESSIONALS The Spec finally got a hold of today; Real Estate Pros, Urban Planning & Transit Proffessors.. And imagine, they all advocate LRT (so long as it's done properly) http://thespec.com/News/Local/article/73...

Hopefully The Spec's days of talking to Drive-Thru Dan & Little Ceaser Larry to get the 'business' perspective is over!

LRT is going to happen despite what squelchers like you and Bob Bratina say! Sorry.

Really? bang on comment.

Look at where nearly all the condo construction is happening in Toronto, near the Gardiner Expressway, a raised highway and a corridor of high public investment. All they did there was get rid of the industrial zoning and boom, large amounts of private residential investment moved in around it.

In Hamilton, our downtown is located very close to a private sector paradise we call the industrial sector. In this area, there are very few public roads, sidewalks, parks, or any other public investments, just acres of unbroken, privately owned land, rail and factories. In fact, this area has almost zero public investment and in 1995, when CN Rail was privatized, we lost even more when the railyards near Barton St. fell under private ownership. Since that time, has the downtown gotten better or worse?

In contrast, take a look at the financial sector of Toronto. It has two subway lines nearby, street cars, a city owned rail corridor, publicly owned Union Station, lots of Go train service, public highways (Gardiner Expressway) and even the Toronto Islands are owned by the city. And what is the result of this high concentration of public assets? Is it stagnation and poverty? No, it's an area of great wealth that Hamilton would love to have.

Look at Locke St. It has gotten much better ever since Hamilton got public Go Train service with the lines that run nearby.

The Perimeter road would be a great way to stimulate new private investment across the whole of the downtown and raise the cap on property values. Combine that with city efforts to eliminate the large swaths of industrial zoned land and Hamilton will not lose prosperity, we will start to build it.

Hamilton does not need, nor has never needed, the private sector to help create jobs, in fact the complete opposite is true, the private sector needs the public to create business opportunities. The best way to do that is to fill ALL areas of Hamilton with plenty of public assets.

Foxcroft's comments were made in the context of locating the stadium somewhere that is easily accessible by car.

He is off the mark linking our driving preference to a decision on where to locate the stadium. People take the bus when they go to Ivor Wynn, or they park far away and walk because there's really nowhere to park. Same thing with the Skydome - parking is expensive and many people walk/take public transit. Don't let him throw you off on this one by getting you side-railed into a pointless debate on car versus bus culture.

Putting a stadium in a location where it is impossible to get to any other way than driving is not a reasonable reaction to the fact that people like to drive their cars. I have a very strong preference for not taking the bus, so I'd walk to the stadium, but I'm sure if parking is expensive enough, many people would be happy to take the bus. And even better if a train shuttle service from Toronto to the stadium for big games could be arranged. It could be a really cool thing down by the waterfront.

Turning his comment into an argument on the relative merits of car culture versus public-transit culture is not productive and I think it also takes the focus away from the central issue of the best location. The real car lovers can still drive to the waterfront. The location is also good for most of Hamilton to take the bus, and even to walk up from downtown through a fairly interesting and often lovely section of town. The Centennial location is only good for car access, which is fine for a Home Depot, but not for an entertainment centre.

I am assuming that Mr. Foxcroft has sold his interest in the former Fluke Transport lands and does not have an ulterior motive for suggesting that dire location.

Road bikes sales per unit in Canada were up 15% in 2009. Poor quality bike sales were down. Source: http://www.btac.org/members/annual_bikes_sales_report.html

Can't help but notice Ryan is quoting dirty hippies like Goldman Sachs and CIBC World Markets.

Capitalist: Here is a series of lectures

Alarming Economic Facts - 1 of 21 - Peak Oil Peak Coal Peak Debt Peak Everything

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9ruW9FRb...

Can't help but notice Ryan is quoting dirty hippies like Goldman Sachs and CIBC World Markets.

Those pinkos!

Ryan wrote:

"From July 19, 2007:

A new report by Jeff Rubin and Peter Buchanan at CIBC World Markets predicts that oil will hit $100 per barrel by the end of 2008.

Projection: Oil prices would hit $100/barrel by the end of 2008.

Actual: Oil prices hit $100/barrel on January 2, 2008. You're right: I was wrong on this one. By two days."

Shouldn't that be a year less two days? or is the year wrong?

Ah yes, more shouting from the fringes... how very constructive.

Anyone think maybe we need both better transit and cars???

I love cars and don't plan on getting rid of mine, especially since there is no transit connection to my work; but I'd love to be able to jump on the LRT right outside my door and go downtown too.

The polar extremes in this debate are pointless and to be ignored.

"Anyone think maybe we need both better transit and cars???" ... "The polar extremes in this debate are pointless and to be ignored."

That would require a spirit of co-operation and genuine concern for the needs of the community. When it occurs beautiful things happen. This region needs a lot of humbling until some of these attitudes are turned around. It will happen, whether peak oil, economic collapse (the US is about to go bankrupt pretending otherwise won't change that), etc, and many won't change willingly so it will be a bit painful, but either we clean up our act and treat each other better or nature will do it for us.

"That's mathematics, son! You can argue with me, but you can't argue with figures!" ~Foghorn Leghorn :)

Agreed Mikeonthemountain.

Often consensus could be found among the "middle majority" but the constant, pointless, open-mouth-closed-ears arguments from the polar extremes often drown out real discussion.

Well false dichotomies are abundant ... if you drive it's easy to be fearful that adding a bike lane will cause gridlock which is nonsense; if you don't drive it's easy to be fearful that 'better cars' can only mean adding more lanes which is also nonsense.

'Better cars' can include, off the top of my head:

1. Consolidate some surface parking into multilevel or underground garages and develop some nice stuff on the currently ghetto looking surface lots. (You know, actually caring about what your city looks like.)

2. Cleaner engines and infrastructure. I find myself gagging (literally) on car/diesel exhaust while walking (not just while cycling). A quick google will yield the numerous already established statistics on respiratory ailments and deaths caused by our smoggy oily civilization.

3. More efficient use of existing space : some concepts include smart-card car rentals which are stacked like this awesome idea from MIT : http://www.markpascua.com/2008/03/11/cit...

4. Self healing concrete in high traffic areas where density can support the extra cost, which decreased maintenance would probably pay for anyway : http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200...

Good ideas are everywhere, we just have unmitigated selfishness and stupidity, foremost in leadership. We should be trying to improve everything - walkability, transit, driving, cycling, ecomony/productivity, it's all so possible just largely suffocated in this current culture of being stuck in our ways, plus enslaved by corruption.

Well said again mikeonthemountain.

Well yeah. Much as I don't care for his logic one thing I can say about Foxcroft is that he does more than talk about issues. He barges ahead and imposes many of his "solutions." I wish a more of those who contribute to RTH (perhaps myself included) would do that.

Thing about cars though is not the pollution or the energy costs. Those can and to a large extent probably will be solved, or at least reduced, by technology. Thing about cars is the congestion. Solving that requires something a little more disruptive and innovative. The result won't be the disappearance of cars but the decline of their primacy.

In North America that decline has already begun. That's what the recent economic crisis was all about. The utility of our current transportation structure (which affects everything from industrial manufacturing to housing construction to social networking) has peaked. It was no accident that it was the automobile manufacturers who required bailouts, along with banks, in the last recession. And those billions went to shore up industries while they cut back production. We're buying time, not rebuilding.

Most of those who say they don't want or like to go into Hamilton's centre seldom cite a lack of interesting things to do there or the costs etc. They complain about things like available free parking. That's a congestion complaint, not complaints about the cost of energy or air pollution. They don't like bikes and public transit because they see these forms of transportation as competition for available roadspace. They also don't like rubbing shoulders with people they consider "undesireables" but that too is all about congestion. And the fact is that in densely populated urban areas, more cars on more roads don't mean more room, however cleanly or cheaply they run.