Raise the Hammer

Spain and Canada, eh? As enviable as the European rail system is there are way too many differences, beyond cultural obstacles between these two countries, to fairly suggest that what can be done in Spain can be emulated in Canada.

It could be a goal for Southern Ontario though.

To "Apples to Oranges", what a load of B.S. You're just making excuses. There's no differences or cultural obstacles why Canada can't have high speed rail, there's just a lack of will from cowardly politicians who don't stand for anything. If you asked Canadians if we should have high speed rail I bet anything most would say YES.

Air travel means plans.
Rail means Hamilton jobs. So rails are made of yes STEEL.
National steel car makes or can make rail cars or platforms. Wheels are made of steel. So put down tracks all over Ontario from Montreal to Windsor, Ottawa to North Bay to Sudbury, Sault Ste Marie to Thunder Bay.
Sarnia to London to Toronto.
We need it. Forget the airports. Europe uses rail and so can we. it is approx 500 kms from Toronto to montreal and consider it is about 5 hrs on a train. or arrive early to clear security and wait for your bags. The total from start to finish is roughly the same for a 500 kms trip.
just get VIA to drop the price or be more realistic 1/6 the carbon imprint.

I'd love a high speed rail line linking Toronto and Montreal. I'd love one linking Halifax and Vancouver, too. But the compactness of Spain, can't be discounted because there are 10 million more people than Canada has squeezed into an area half the size of Ontario. The grid pattern of rail lines crisscrossing Spain benefits far more people compared to a single line linking Toronto and Montreal. You're asking for a very expensive transit line which will need taxpayer support way beyond the the cities being served. Vancouverites and Haligonians won't be so willing to help support some central Canadian high speed project. I can't see it happening, not in our generation.

I don't think anyone is proposing transnational high speed trains, but the Windsor-Quebec corridor has exactly the kind of compactness and density that you're talking about. The only thing stopping us is our mindset.

I forgot right here in Ontario (Thunder Bay) we have a rapid transit manufactuer in an area where forestry once thrived. So there is is resources available.

Short-haul trips like Toronto-Montreal, Toronto-Ottawa, Calgary-Edmonton, Toronto-New York, etc (as opposed to Halifax-Vancouver), are more amenable to high speed rail than air. Rail is easier to take (just show up and hop on) and the stations are easier to access than remote airports. The vast majority of travellers prefer rail to air.

Building a high-speed network will reduce the travel time substantially enough to divert air travellers to rail. Not only would this switch have environmental benefits, but it would also increase travel in general (as it would now be easier to hop over to Montreal for lunch, or a Habs game).

In contrast to what some people have been claiming on here, there is no reason Canada can't replicate what is being done in Europe.

"In contrast to what some people have been claiming on here, there is no reason Canada can't replicate what is being done in Europe."

But there is. Obviously, it's a lack of money. Good luck getting commitment from the Ont and Que gov'ts so mired in debt. Even though half of Canada's population lives in the Windsor-QC corridor you'll never get the adequate federal support to help finance a system.

"But there is. Obviously, it's a lack of money. Good luck getting commitment from the Ont and Que gov'ts so mired in debt."

Bollocks. Spain's GDP per capita is about $20,000 lower than Canada, their real GDP growth has been slower over the past decade and will be sharply negative this year, they've got a big current accounts deficit, and their federal budget deficit is expected to exceed 7% of GDP in 2009.

They're in much worse fiscal shape than we are but they're still building high speed trains as (long term) an investment in future sustainability and economic growth and (short term) an economic stimulus.

Not sure if you noticed but we're shelling out craploads of bucks for a stimulus too, only we're mostly wasting it on things that won't really stimulate the economy and won't position us for future sustainable growth.

That's not because our culture is opposed to these things but because our federal government doesn't care about them and the opposition are a bunch of wilty flowers terrified of an election they can't afford.

Your argument is a self fulfilling prophesy, nothing more.

Debt, debt, debt. Is that all there is to argue? Why is it so impossible for these people to realize that this stagnate economic situation we are in needs to be stimulated. Innovation will created economic growth throughout all of southern Ontario. This is the 21st century, if we don't take radical steps now to improve our future than we will continue to linger behind the rest of the country. Ontario used to be the economic engine of this country, but now we are a drain. We need to regain control and once again become our countries forerunner in success.

While it's laudable that Canada has been so financially responsible all these years I can't help but wonder that maybe if we were less thrifty, maybe if we had a debt to GDP ratio equivalent to some of the other G7 nations, then maybe we would be better off as a country?

I'm not suggesting we go crazy, but when most of the industrialized nations are much further in debt that us I can't help but wonder if we're costing ourselves a long term advantage by not borrowing money now?

sure, and when airlines get greener, we'll abandon the rail lines again. The cycle continues..

It may surprise you to learn that airplane manufacturers actually are concerned about fuel efficiency. Burning less fuel saves the carriers money, and allows longer flight paths. There is no reason to make fuel inefficient planes, unlike cars, where people chose poor performing cars for life style choices (or utility purposes on occasion). No one ever considers the exterior of the plane they're in.

@ Apples to Oranges

"But there is. Obviously, it's a lack of money. Good luck getting commitment from the Ont and Que gov'ts so mired in debt. Even though half of Canada's population lives in the Windsor-QC corridor you'll never get the adequate federal support to help finance a system."

Money is always a concern for any policy decision. But money, in isolation, is not an argument against any particular policy choice (such as building a high speed rail network). It really comes down to whether the expense can be justified by the potential benefits. There is always money for a project if the political will exists. Your statement actually suggests a lack of political will, rather than the inability to raise sufficient funds, is what is holding back investment in a high speed rail network.

Of course, it's easy to blame politicans. It's also pointless. Believe it or not, politicians care deeply about what the electorate thinks. High speed rail is simply not a huge issue in the minds of most people. Until it is, we will never see the kind of developments happening in Europe.

Canada as a country was built on rail. It disappeared for a short time (less than 100 yrs) during a "blip" where people made some very unsustainable decisions. That's all.

Where there is a will said: "Spain's GDP per capita is about $20,000 lower than Canada, their real GDP growth has been slower over the past decade and will be sharply negative this year, they've got a big current accounts deficit, and their federal budget deficit is expected to exceed 7% of GDP in 2009."

I agree with you. However, there are a couple of factual errors:

1) Spain's GDP per capita (on PPP terms, which is the right way to measure wealth) is just $8,000 lower than Canada's.

2) Spain's real GDP growth over the past decade has been slightly higher than Canada's.

3) Spain's big current-account deficit financed investment, not consumption, unlike the US and UK (investment in Spain, at over 30% GDP, was one of the highest in the developed world; compare that to 21% in Canada, 19% in the US and 17% in the UK).

4) And finally, annual budget deficits don't matter, what matters is long-term federal debt, which is 36% GDP for Spain and twice as much (70%) for Canada.

But I agree Canada (like much of the world) lacks political will, not money.