Raise the Hammer

Don't forget that it's a Cadillac with the maintenance costs of a Chevy Cavalier, or a Cavalier with the maintenance costs of a Cadillac.

I guess it's one of these

No, that's a Cavalier dressed up as a Cadillac.

It's a poor analogy that's being stretched to it's limit.

The problem is that LRT costs more to build than BRT (capital costs) but costs less to maintain (operating costs).

Since the province has said it will cover the capital costs and leave us with the operating costs, Brad Clark's comment that we can only afford BRT doesn't make any sense, since it'll have a higher cost than LRT.

Yes this distinction seems to get lost in the mix. It makes little sense to build BRT instead of LRT with the provincial capital funding being promised. Not when the operating costs which Hamilton taxpayers are responsible for and cannot borrow to cover are higher for BRT. The B-Line LRT is the clear choice in our situation. The alternative, which Brad Clark is supporting now, is essentially to do nothing on this file.

Comment edited by RobF on 2014-10-15 14:13:26

whas sat?

"We're paying for an LRT line in Waterloo..."

Here in Hamilton, where we’re talking about 100% funding from the provincial government, this sounds like Waterloo Region’s LRT must be provincially funded. That’s not the case: a third of the funding is coming from the provincial government; another third from the federal government; and the remainder from the Regional Municipality of Waterloo. The Municipality had initially hoped for a larger contribution from the Province, but had to cover the shortfall.

It’s unclear to say that “we” are paying for an LRT in Waterloo. Part of the funding is coming from the coffers of other levels of government, and I guess it’s true that taxpayers in Hamilton contribute to those. But a significant portion of the project is being funded at the municipal level.

Regardless of how much the province is actually paying for those projects, the point still rings true.

Ditto for Ottawa.

In the GTHA, this is the case - Mississauga and Toronto (and others are 100%). If we don't take the investment, we still pay for others rapid transit. To do this is INSANE and as a political ploy, it shows shear dishonestly in Clark. The man will say, do, lie, contort, whatever it takes to get elected. Not the "Change we Need"

I can't watch the show (Bell subscriber), so I'm curious to know if Chris Higgins was asked how it felt to be linked – erroneously, it would seem – to Brad Clark's reasoning to change his mind on LRT and now advocate so-called "flexible BRT."

It is what it is, which is politics. I am sure his mind was made up as soon as his mayoral competitors supported it. You need a wedge issue to define yourself with. And it has become clear to me that it's not even about LRT or BRT in this election, it's fighting about whether our existing street network will be maintained. i.e. you couldn't even give some people in this city $1 Billion in provincial investment to give up their one-way streets.

And it has become clear to me that it's not even about LRT or BRT in this election…

I'd agree with that, although I'd go further and suggest the reason why there's such resonance with LRT being a wedge issue is it reflects the growing class divisions that many cities are facing but Hamilton uniquely so. LRT is continuously described as a "toy" or gift, unnecessary at that, to the downtown. It reflects the unease of, as Richard Florida describes it, "a missing middle of industrial jobs, [and] middle-income neigbhourhoods [that] have begun to disappear from our cities and metros." They are getting something, and we are losing.

Well, at least that's my theory, based on the super-charged rhetoric around what really should be academic arguments. And somewhere client scientists are shaking their heads over and over.

Comment edited by jeff on 2014-10-15 19:17:33

The reasoning seems to go like this:

highways all around the suburbs are an 'investment'. None of those residents say "we shouldn't build these because they aren't used by the entire city". Transit is for poor people with no jobs. Therefore LRT = a toy, and a waste of money because why should poor people have good transpo options when they aren't contributing anything to society anyhow.

That is my impression as well. That mindset is just as obsolete as the ICEs they're driving. I tell you truthfully, having the choice to live comfortably and peacefully with no car, is worth more to me than the car.

The problem includes, but is bigger than Hamilton's downtown. The other day in physio, overhearing background chat, downtown Hamilton came up and was spoken of pejoratively as though it was a matter of course. However a Burlington mayoral candidate also wants to cancel bike lanes because they're ineffective. Meanwhile I sit on my balcony and watch with my own eyes schoolkids and adults use the on road bike lanes (at least in ward 2 of burlington where the network is a somewhat decent beginning). And Europe is beginning tests of hydrogen-electric trains, and we are still banging our heads against the same wall, struggling to even string some wires over some track, having to constantly debate to exhaustion just to maintain the improvements we do have and not slip backwards into 60s motormania hell.

Comment edited by mikeonthemountain on 2014-10-16 07:38:34

Bang on. I've been saying it for years and despite being critized by some, will continue to say that the more TO migrants moving here who actually know how enjoyable city living can be, the better off we'll be. The small group of Hamilton folks who understand it simply hasn't been large enough to make a city wide impact. We're slowly getting there tho.

Wow. What a piece of...television entertainment. (I could reference it with a decidedly undecorous -my word- phrase such as a 'circle-j@$%', but I won't. Sorta. Kinda.)

It was like an infomercial. An infomercial with not just four participants reading from the same script, but a 'moderator' who couldn't possibly be any more obsequious- Hmmm... Actually, given what I saw, I bet he could.

Very reminiscent of the tenor and substance of this election campaign's 'debates' (for the most part): Pablum. (I think Kool-aid needs to be retired.)

Preaching to the converted. To the Loyal Cadre of pro-LRTers. Certainly not to the people who are going to vote against it by voting for the candidate who ain't yours...namely those in districts outside Wards 1 & 2. But this is an audience that nobody seems to want to engage with.

Here's a suggestion: Instead of having a stacked panel whose purpose is to shine a very bright light on The Shiny Thing Capable of Transforming a City, how about actually having a dialogue with people who don't wear the same jersey at you do. Unless of course, you're not actually interested in engagement, but in feeling the righteous glee that listening to your thoughts coming out of someone else's mouth provides.

Comment edited by ItJustIs on 2014-10-15 21:06:40

That was refreshing. There's far too much back-slapping and self-congratulation on this site over how they feel they're the smartest guys in the room and the people who disagree "just don't get it" or are knowingly ignoring it.

There are no BRT supporters. That`s a waste of money (as Ottawa has found out) and only leads to more costs for the city of Hamilton with none of the city building benefits. There`s a reason why most, if not all experts, support LRT. We arent inventing it. We know it works in MANY other places, and have the benefit to adopt their best practices.

"There are no BRT supporters."

Really? I'd say otherwise.

You misunderstand - everybody who says they want BRT really just wants the whole "improving transit" thing to go away. At most they want a few more empty buses to the suburbs.

Here's a simple test: if you want to remove the bus-lane, you don't want BRT.

No. I don't. YOU misunderstand. I know what BRT is, as do others in this city, and it's a viable option. Please don't try to lecture me on what you think I don't know.

I agree. While the show accepted calls, tweets, and emails from any and all, they should have just cut to The Sun News guy for some really constructive dialogue that I'm sure would have bridged the divide between us.

It staggers me that the concept of fully-funded inner city transportation should even be up for debate. I've lived here my whole life, and I remember back when HSR bus service was still considered enviable and viable for everyone. I could be wrong, because these are anecdotal points, but our streets seemed quieter, our students happier and our attitude towards car culture didn't seem as ingrained as it is today, and this was back in the day when every guy on my block was outside tuning his Charger or applying Bondo to his Mustang. It's a weird irony that, in an age when cars aren't as mythologized as they were when I was growing up, that our attitude towards getting out of them and walking, cycling or riding public transit is seen as an almost unnecessary necessary evil.

I know I'm short on original ideas on this, but I think what we need is a comprehensive re-education program to teach everyone why Complete Streets and LRT aren't just some fantasy dreamed up by inner city intelligentsia to take away their easy 'commute'. It could be a combination of posters, brochures and short videos, using smart infographics and simple animations with voiceovers to help show everyone how the changes aren't that radical, aren't just pie-in-the-sky thinking, and could really revitalize not just the downtown core, but the entire east/west route through Wards 1 through 5 (for starters), if only we'd wrap our brains around the benefits of a comprehensive, efficient, comfortable public transit system.

One of the key points that has to be addressed is this prevalent attitude towards the downtown core. The outer boroughs seem to think they can function just fine without one, failing of course to realize the long term effects of a rotting inner city. Blaming amalgamation for the higher taxes and refusing to cope with the reality of our city solves nothing. We can't turn back the clock, and if we really look at the sequence of events, we'll see that there's no point in trying. It's not possible to undo all of the things that have been done to us and still take care of the myriad problems we currently have. The damage is done. Time to move forward for a change.

And I agree with Chris et al about LRT NOT being a silver bullet investment. It shouldn't be. Silver Bullets and White Knights are faerie tales, and we really need to get our heads out of the Disney books and start looking at what makes modern cities flourish, including macro and micro economies and organic growth. I'm tired of the way Hamilton loves to put all of its eggs in one basket. It's that thinking that got us tied to the steel mills and the juggernaut industrial sector and high index pollution and a worn out inner city in the first place. We have a chance to move past that era now, to get started on building a new city, with a new identity, new relationships, and new economy, but we can't do any of it if we keep looking over our shoulders fondly at a misunderstood, bygone era that will never truly return again. The global economy won't allow it.

The funny thing is, too many people, certain candidates included, think that Hamilton, is, was and always will be an industrial city first and foremost. We got that way after decades of being other things. Study your Hamilton history and you'll find we were once the centre of court justice in Southern Ontario, and then the transit AND electricity capital of the region, and a bustling near-metropolis of trade and consumerism, as well as a thriving manufacturing city. That changed slowly, and part of the problem is, we spent too long bowing at the twin altars of steel and the automotive industry. We've forgotten our true identity, which was to always be on the cusp of growth and technology. We have a chance to reclaim that, and to make our city all these pleasing platitudes we've heaped upon ourselves recently, if we can just get rid of this knee-jerk reaction to progress and evolution/innovation.

Heck, LRT isn't even reinventing the wheel: It works almost everywhere it's been implemented, when it's done right (which we need to consider carefully ourselves). LRT, Two-Way Conversion, Complete Streets, tax incentives and reduced red tape for small business operators, and yes, Brad, fixing our roads and sidewalks... these things can and will all contribute to the revitalization of our city as a whole. No one is going to come to Stoney Creek Mountain or even Ancaster for a day trip if the majority of the City of Hamilton is dessicated by willful neglect. But if you fix up the heart of the city, all of the city's attractions will become more accessible and desirable attractions for everyone. This is how other cities function and thrive. Just insisting that it has to be a Hamilton-made solution isn't going to get anything done. Of course it will be a Hamilton=-made solution. Only we can make it.

And only we can stop it stone dead. Choose.

A thousand words? On the Internet? Render that down to a third the length and I'll have a read.

You counted? I'm almost flattered. But I'm also serious, so here's my tl;dr version:

Saying no to LRT isn't an option. We need it, and we're paying for it whether we want to or not. And no, LRT alone won't save us, but then, nothing and no one else will, either. We need to get it together as a city and reclaim our status as innovators and community builders. We need to unlearn old prejudices and learn what it takes to make a city thrive in a recessed, diversified economy. And we REALLY need to stop listening to talking heads that feed into our fear, angst and reflexive dread of encouraging and being seen as anything other than blue collar shmoes. Historically, we have been--and could still be--so much more.

(132 words)

Your comment was well stated and raised very true points. I'm glad you are not discouraged by someone who probably is having difficulty reading due to too much awesomesauce :)

Hamilton realistically will never get an LRT because of the funding issues and political issues in this city. It's just not realistic and we need to focus more on other issues such as housing and poverty. LRT just is not fit witin the understanding of Hamilton. Toronto for sure because it is a large city. Hamilton is large but if we were to build it it would be impossible. Too many issues such as widening the road, traffic lights, etc.