Raise the Hammer

Good luck everyone. There are people who will be fighting this every step of the way, but we're all rooting for you.

To clarify: Volunteering as a "community stakeholder" is contingent upon attending Monday's session?

Also: Does anyone know if there is latent fiscal latitude to actually implement something in the immediate future on either or both of these thoroughfares? Or is this fated to become an open-source version of the stuff we've been contracting to consultants for the last decade?

Well this is a great first step! Hope everything turns out!

Great news! Glad to see the term 'complete street' being used. Parking, trees, bikes, cars etc..... we need many more complete streets in Hamilton.

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Comment edited by administrator Ryan on 2012-11-21 07:33:00

Concern troll alert.

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Comment edited by administrator Ryan on 2012-11-21 07:33:13

A concern troll is someone who is on one side of the discussion, but pretends to be a supporter of the other side with "concerns".

Since you are basically arguing to keep the status quo,.. but with a few less lanes and slowing traffic by 5km/hr, you are not truly in support of a complete street approach. Adding bike lanes but still favouring cars is a good start but it's not a complete street.

There are plenty of one-way complete streets around the world.

Tell me you wouldn't trade Main Street Hamilton for something like Blvd Des Maissoneuve in Montreal? Or Hornsby Street Vancouver? Or any street in Portland?

Tell me you wouldn't trade Main Street Hamilton for something like Blvd Des Maissoneuve in Montreal?

While Maissoneuve has nice bike lanes, it's not my model for what Main Street could be: it's a relatively dead street for much of its run through downtown. If I'm walking, I'll almost always skip up or down one block to walk on a more lively street.

One-way traffic is only one reason that Maissoneuve is deadish, of course - but it certainly contributes to the not-a-normal-street feel.

The question for me is not "why two way?" it's "why one way?" I need a compelling argument to continue our fifty-year failed experiment.

Comment edited by moylek on 2012-11-21 07:51:53

That's where logic unfortunately has to take a back-seat to politics.

The problem with that approach is that it means nothing can be done for Queen. Queen is part of the eastbound truck-route, and it's only 2-3 lanes with no room for real widening or anything. Rehabilitating Queen between Cannon and King is going to be a challenge without going two-way.

Queen can stay a truck route but no one says a truck route has to be fast. If it's a complete street then the only trucks that will use it will be the ones that must rather than the ones that choose to bypass the highways.

I live 2 blocks from Queen, just south of York and see potential for a couple of cross sections:

• 8' parking lane on west curb, which can double as a right turn lane at King, Charlton and Aberdeen, 10' travel lane, 2' buffer zone, 10' 2-way bike lanes on east curb. IMO there is never a need for 2 or 3 full live lanes here. It's a freeway. 1 full lane with right turn lanes as mentioned would do the trick. And here's the best part, if it's slower and functions as a normal urban street, trucks will use the multi billion $ freeway system we built them that connects all 4 corners of the city seamlessly and easily. The last thing we should cater to is truck companies who are cutting through the city even though it actually takes them longer than using the QEW/403 or Red Hill/Linc. Once these streets are slightly slowed, it will take trucks a few minutes longer and hopefully their bosses will glance at a map and notice all the free-flowing freeways circling the city.

Second cross section is two-way:

• 8' parking/right turns on west curb, 10' live lane south, 10' live lane north, possibly a 3-4' northbound bike lane if there's room on the east curb.

Personally I'm cool with either option if they were proposed like this. The two-way bike path idea has great appeal due to the lack of N/S bike lanes in this part of the city.

Comment edited by jason on 2012-11-20 20:10:30

Personally I'm cool with either option if they were proposed like this. The two-way bike path idea has great appeal due to the lack of N/S bike lanes in this part of the city.

Two-way conversion of Bay Street is my big "why the heck hasn't this been done already" thing.

me too. It's crazy in it's current form. All the wasted space between Main and York for extra, unnecessary lanes. It could easily go two-way similar to how it is north of Cannon, all the way south.

The Downtown Transportation Master Plan was approved by Council in 2001.

The first project constructed under the Plan was Phase 1 of the conversion of James and John Streets (late Sept 2002).

On March 9, 2005 Hamilton City Council approved the James/John Phase 2 Conversion. That work began at some point over the summer. James & John Streets were fully opened to two-way traffic Nov 21, 2005.

That's around 5.25 km of street converted to two-way, sans bike lanes, in a blistering four years.

Queen & Aberdeen > Queen & York > Cannon & Sherman, coincidentally, is around 5.25km.

See further diaglog about this in skyscraperpage.com.

A forum consisting of many Hamilton locals excited about building plans and changes...

Good luck on the street conversion, Cannon needs this in a big way!

With the satellite tracking and mapping technology (GPS) that we currently have today, I wonder if trucking companies actively use it to plan, and adjust their routes?
Using google map directions, I picked a starting point of Ottawa Street and Burlington St (assuming that most trucks have a destination / starting point here), and an ending point of Brantford ON to see what google would recommend..... It recommends taking Ottawa, then King St to get to Hwy 403, at 42 mins. It’s alternate suggestion is Burlington St / Red Hill / Linc at 43 mins. In current traffic (as of 9:30 am on Nov 21), it takes 45 mins on King St, and 43 mins on Red Hill/Linc. Not much difference, even in the world of "Just In Time" delivery. Again, this is just Google’s "Guestimate", and of course we would have to do an actual test drive at different times during the day, but the point is if these numbers are correct in the real world, it may add more support to the claim that the highway ring network is just as efficient in moving traffic from the industrial area of the city, and there is no need to travel through the city.

And keep in mind, trucks are banned on King from Wellington to Bay...so the detour up to Cannon would add time to their cross-town trip.

The difference is fault-tolerance. A bad accident happens in Oakville at rush-hour and suddenly the entire 403/QEW network just completely stops. And then you're stuck waiting half an hour to get to the next ramp before you can start to limp through Burlington.

Cannon and Main? Even at their worst (when there's a major event at the convention centre or Copps that starts at 9AM), they're still just a few extra minutes.

I'm really not surprised that drivers prefer going through town to taking our brittle expressway system.

ooops, sorry posted this twice. Ryan please delete the 2nd post, thanks

And maybe even post the speed limit as 40km/h next to Central Elementary School on Bay.

You know, like most every other elementary school in the city.

The BOE has presumably overlooked it. I'm sure it'll be sold off shortly.

Oh. I forgot there was a school there. That means that even if bay did go two way, they'd keep the stretch along central one-way because reasons. Still, at least that's in a neighbourhood where detouring around the 1-way wouldn't be too hard.

is there a rule that streets need to be one-way past schools?

There shouldn't be, but City Hall and the Board seem to have decided there is for pick-up/drop-offs. Somehow, every other city in Ontario manages just fine without this rule.

Bay needs to be two-way. As it is now - the Ambulances jolt over to James St. North to get to their destination through a residential area. Making Bay not only makes it friendlier for all - it also creates a better way for Emergency vehicles to get where they are going without being re-routed.

As a motorist,may I suggest that a couple of those bump out curbs on King st. and especially the one on front of the old tivoly site on James create a pinch point between cars and bikes.Could those be retracted about four feet inwards?Cost to do this would be minimal compared to the hazard they inadvertantly create.Does anyone else believe that a spirit of mutual respect and cooperation between motorists and bikes and e-bikes might go a long way toward safer streets,after all none of us are going away any time soon so lets all get along.Thank you

http://www.completestreetsforcanada.ca/case_study/city-mississauga

If you're unable to attend, the ever-excelllent Joey Coleman is livestreaming the meeting.

https://t.co/uoZrkugD

My favourite moment was from Mr. George Sorbara, the lone, brave, angry voice of dissent. He described the negative effect of two-way traffic on James Street North businesses, naming several which he alleges have lost custom since the two-way reversion.

And every time I go on James Street ... it takes me forever to get up that street. ... I haven't gone to MIller's in two or three years now. I go to the one on the mountain now ...

... and why does he drive an extra twenty minutes to save maybe two or three minutes on James North?

.. because it's so busy now, there's no parking.

And there, in his passionate anger, he states the truth he refuses to acknowledge: James Street North is just plain busier: more people, more parked cars, more shops, more customers.

I mention this not to make fun of Mr. Sorbara, but because I believe that he is typical of many of the opponents of the reversion to two-way streets: he's seeing the improved situation on James North, but can't allow himself to accept that it actually is better.

So we need to help him realize just what he is seeing and why it's better than what we had.

Comment edited by moylek on 2012-11-26 23:34:45

To be fair, I go to the one on the mountain too... because the prices there are better.

Which, in turn, implies that the lower-city location is doing so well that they're able to demand high prices from their clientele without losing them.

I wonder what the outcome could possibly be. A series of presentations by a group of biased individuals who all have nary a grain of common sense among them. An outcry or a demand for less cars and more transit and bike lanes and sidewalks and green space and trees and flowers. The fact that the vast majority of the citizens use cars for their primary mode of transport will be ignored. They don't care about the majority, the taxpayers who fund this city. All they care about is their own perverted sense of reality. The fact that they are in the minority and are making life more difficult for the majority has absolutely no baring on anything in their ridiculous sense of priorities. I am truly afraid.

You were welcome to bring your "majority" to the meeting and state your opinions.

Once again, we see 99% of the citizens who are actually engaged taking the side of the argument with the best evidence.

But the councillors bend to the 1% of loudmouth people who call them up and cry about the sky falling.

Like most other things in life the people attracted to something like this are the malcontents and unemployed who have nothing better to do with their time. The vast majority of us are either working or dealing with a very busy schedule.

Just look at Toronto. The majority voted Ford into office. Since then it has been a constant stream of nonsense from left leaning politicians getting in his way. The public has stated they want him to make changes yet some of these numbsculls decide that they will push their own agenda. The latest stupidty of taking him to court over $3,200 he helped raise is the pinnacle of nonsense. The majority speaks and others wish to ignore it and push their own agenda. Just like you.

You're like the guy who got mad at me for being "in his way" on my bike, and yelled out his window something about how poor I was. Meanwhile the bike I was riding was worth more than his rusted out car - not that the value of your vehicle means a damned thing when we are sharing the same road.

What I'm trying to say is if you are looking for malcontents wishing to push an "agenda", you should start with a mirror.

The difference between my agenda and yours is that mine is about creating a better city throughout every ward. Yours is about getting to work faster.

Do you realize that a successful downtown will lower your taxes even if you don't live in Ward 2?

Do you think our downtown is successful now?

Do you support lower taxes?

These are honest questions.

Why don't you register a real name and tell us a little bit about yourself? People might take you more seriously. Or at least come out to the next complete streets meeting and present your research on the benefits of one way highways.

75 of us rushed to city hall after work (and skipped dinner) to be a part of our city's positive growth. Where were you?

If you hate the neighbourhood you live in so much why oh why do you live their? Why would you move their in the first place? If I hated any place that much I certainly would not move their nor would most reasonable people.

Seancb never said anywhere that he hates his neighbourhood, though you sure seem to hate it since you keep making time in your "very busy schedule" to argue with people who are trying to make downtown better, even while you brag about not living there. Just so you know, you're arguing with a business owner not an "unemployed malcontent". If he'd listened to the squelching from the likes of you he never would of decided to open a commuter bike store downtown that markets to people who live there by choice. He never would of been so successful that he needed to move to a bigger location (on a two way street). The city is changing, downtown is changing for the better and you will be left scratching your head wondering what happened, meanwhile it's staring you in the face but your too close minded to see it.

That's funny. The only malcontent around here is you, the guy who lives on a two way street in a nice neighborhood and begrudges other people wanting the same thing if it even has a chance of slightly inconveniencing you.

In Toronto the voters made a mistake electing Rob Ford and they realize it. By summer he didn't have even 50% approval in any ward of the city, not even his own ward where he had only 33%. This week a poll found 58% in Toronto agreed with him being kicked out of office for breaking conflict of interest rules.

Like you, Ford believes he shouldn't have to be accountable to other people or accommodate their needs. Sometimes people fall for a "common sense" pitch that is simple and wrong, but sooner or later they always wise up.

Here's my take on the meeting. Hopefully this is a good start to some actual progress. I just wish the spectator would be a champion for this city rather than trying to poke people in the eye and start fights:

http://www.bikehounds.ca/2012/11/some-th...